Talk:Ascended master

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[edit] the masters

I have not read most of the posts on this forum, nor will I. I came to give an opinion, but I don't know if it's been covered here. I've been called an ascended master by others, who are highly spiritual teachers. I came to wikipedia to read a little on this matter. I believe most of what I've read on the main article to be true. I believe there are several things that all people must embrace if they wish to advance themselves in every aspect, as well. Some advice for any who feel they need something more..

Feel and give gratitude for everything. It has all come to you for a reason. You've either brought it upon yourself or someone else brought it to you. But it couldn't enter your reality unless you embraced it. Cheating spouses, debt, wrongful imprisonment, winning the lottery, everything comes with accordance to your actions. If you accept it before it happens and before you know about it, like it's yours, it's yours.

Your emotions are your calling. What you feel you feed. The most powerful way to change your life for the better is to feel love and gratitude for all, for everything. Wake up every morning and say thank you. Thank you for everything. Thank you for this, for that, for things I've never had but I want (say it like you have it.). Thank you for my love. Thank you for my abundance of money. Thank you for my friends. Say thank you hundreds of times in your head through your morning routines, while you're driving. When someone hits your car, believe you and your passengers are well and hope the other car's passengers are well. Anger feeds anger, love feeds love. Which feels better?

Fear is offspring of the unknown. The unknown is nothing to fear, it's a new adventure. Most people fear death. They don't know what is coming; no one can know about death, unless they've died. But most of us have died. We die, return to a spiritual plane of our level, learn, and wait for our choice of which incarnation we will choose, to better experience and learn of life. Enlightenment comes with freedom of fear of death, because you know what happens upon physical death. The unknown is no more.


For my opinion on the 'earth changes' topic like someone requested, yes. We are at the end of an ice age, which means another will soon trigger. I don't know the exact date, but I do know many sources have pinpointed 2012. Firm your own opinion but always leave it open for more. Look at all of the natural disasters the world has encountered lately. Look at the politics. Look at the corruption in every sect of humanity. Psychiatrists have earned over 300 trillion dollars imprisoning and prescribing drugs to children and adults all over the world since the 1960's, from government funding alone. Europe has taken the first step to become one continental country. The USA has a law in place allowing the president to seize full, unchallengeable power at a time he deems emergency. The world needs a change, I am happy of the coming age. I can't wait to see what will come.


Most important for everyone to understand. There are two types of gods. The first is the divine god which governs all. The second is you. Everyone is their own god. Realize this, and be free. 172.191.120.254 04:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC) an "Ascended Master". August 27, 2007

[edit] Category change requested

Please can an administrator remove the metaphysics category from this page. There is a common misunderstanding among non-philosphers that anything to do with spirituality is 'metaphysical'. There is even a sense in which that is true. However, this article has nothing to do with metaphysics, except inasmuch as it makes assumptions about the existence of certain things - and face it, most articles do that. Anarchia 10:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is ABSOLUTELY in the metaphysics category! It should not be removed Arion 15:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Category:Metaphysics is for philosophical metaphysics; that is for articles that refer to the philosophical discussion of existence. These theosophical pages do not contain philosophical arguments at all. There are no arguments referring to recognisd phuilosophers or noteworthy arguments. If they were to be discussed philosophically, they would be treated as empirical examples, not part of the discipline of philosophy. Perhaps you oculd start a ew category Metaphysics (spirituality), although I would have thought that it would end up comtaining exactly the same things that are already in the spirituality category. If you diagree, perhaps we could shift this discuission to the Category:Metaphysics talk page?
P.S. A bald statement like "This article is ABSOLUTELY in the metaphysics category! It should not be removed" is not an argument, that is a nice example of why the page does not, and the six or so others like it, does not belong in Cat Metaphysics. Anarchia 22:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Metaphysics has been the theme and foundation of the Instruction that is believed to have been given by Ascended Masters, such as Morya, Kuthumi, Lady Master Nada, and Sanat Kumara. Metaphysics has been the theme and foundation of the Teachings of organizations such as The Bridge to Freedom and The Temple of The Presence. For the last 77 years, Ascended Masters and Their Activities (organizations) have been presented as teaching on philosophical metaphysics, the nature of Reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value. They have been discussing First Principles, including the nature of existence, ontology and cosmology, the Individualization of Self-Conscious Identities, and the All-Pervading Principle of Life. Arion 17:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by theme and foundation. I think I know what you mean about teaching about the nature of reality and the relationship between mind and matter etc. The problem is that saying the nature of reality is X is not doing metaphysics. Consider the pages in question:
  1. Lady Master Nada contains no arguments about the nature of reality. This page is a bunch of statements about a person. There is no discussion of anthing to do with metaphysics.
  2. Kuthumi also contains no arguments about the nature of reality.
  3. Sanat Kumara also contains no arguments about the nature of reality. It is, again, a bunch of statements about "the Lord or Regent of Earth and of humanity", which makes a claim about existence, but this is not what metaphysics is about. It would be as ridiculous to include Jesus or Buddha or every page form the Catholic church, which probably also thinks it is inherently concerned with existence, in category:metaphysics.
  4. Morya Ditto.
  5. The Temple of The Presence Ditto, athough it seems to state facts and events that occur in a community rather than facts or events that occurred for people.
  6. The Bridge to Freedom Ditto.
Where is the philosphical metaphysics on these pages? Why do you want these pages included in the category?Anarchia 06:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

All of the articles that you have asserted should not be listed under the category of "Metaphysics" are in fact directly concerned with philosophical metaphysics. Organizations of Ascended Master Teachings, as well as those discussions purported to originate directly from Ascended Masters, investigate principles of reality that transcend any particular science, traditionally including cosmology and ontology. They are also concerned with explaining the ultimate nature of existence, self-conscious being and the physical and non-physical world. They discuss subjects that are purported to be beyond the physical world, thus bridging the known material knowledge of man and the purported "Science of the Initiates".

There does not need to be a discussion of the general subject of a category for an article to be listed under that category. For example, there are 145 articles listed in Wikipedia under the category of "Nanotechnology". Each of these articles does not go into a discussion of the general subject of "Nanotechnology" - nor would it be expected to go into such a discussion. Arion 02:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you completely that an article does not need to include the word 'metaphysics' to be in catregory:metaphysics, and also agree that an article need not discuss the subject in general terms to belong in a category. I believe that none of the pages concerned in our discussion here shows signs of investigating reality that would be recognised by any philosopher, and the category in question in philosophical metaphysics. They definitely do discuss "subjects that are purported to be beyond the physical world". But, as most of the pages on Wikipedia do this, this cannot, on its own, be an indicaiton that they belong in cat:metaphysics.
I ask again, what is it you believe is achieved by including these pages in cat:metaphysics, especially when they are already appropriately linked into cat:philosophy?
Would you like me to ask for this dispute to be mediated?Anarchia 02:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe that anyone who is familiar with the subject of "Ascended Masters" and the organizations promoting this philosophical metaphysics regarding the nature of existence and the nature of Reality would agree that "Metaphysics" as a category best describes this subject. Those unfamiliar with the subject may disagree. Arion 03:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

No offence, but I, on the other hand, believe that anyone who has a decent degree in metaphysics would agree that it does not. I think we have a situation here that really is best dealt with by informed mediation. Do you agree? Anarchia 05:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree for the reason that I stated above. Arion 16:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this article has nothing to do with metaphysics as it is understood in philosophy. This article is an expression of a belief and user Aburesz (with new username Arion) works hard to keep the article reflecting the belief he shares - and excluding different opinions and points of view. Some new-age organization could well wish their Supreme Teaching to be included into category "Quantum physics", but decision whether to include articles into this category requires being familiar with physics, good knowledge of Supreme Teaching is not sufficient for it. Hele 7 19:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This article has to do with metaphysics as understood in 21st century usage and accepted dictionary definitions. I agree with Hele 7 that the "decision whether to include articles into this category requires being familiar with" the particular subject. I have been studying metaphysics since 1962, and have lectured on metaphysics and theories on "principles of reality that transcend any particular science." I believe that I am familiar with metaphysics as both a subject and a category. Arion 21:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not doubt that these articles fit one of the dictionary definitions of 'metaphysics' or 'metatphysical', but not all the dictionary definitions of metaphysics are descriptions of philosophical metaphysics. I suspect that when you write that you have 'lectured on metaphysics and theories on "principles of reality that transcend any particular science."' you are not talking about a lecturing position at a recognised university that you have been given because you have a graduate degree in metaphysics. However, wikpedia decisions are not about who has the best qualifications. Perhaps you could reference the articles in question using wikipedia approved reliable secondary sources that mention these concepts in the context of a discussion of philosophical metaphysics? It is extremely lkely that would convince me that you are correct. I will have a search myself later - kids music lessons now! Anarchia 23:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Arion, Anarchia is right. The academic community in philosophy frowns on resorting to spirituality, mysticism, and mention of divine. It is a necessary boundary. Metaphysics means something specific to academics. I understand what you are saying too, as it appears to you that it is metaphysics. Perhaps we need a category under metaphysics to deal with this type of thing. I don't think it should be directly in the metaphysics category.
I would however say that it could go under philosophy of religion just fine with me.

(BTW, as the pontiff of my own religion, you can consider me to be an Ascended master myself. So there you have it.) Be well, Gregbard 02:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I have done the following searches:
  1. Philosophers Index database (all significant articles and books for analytic and continental philosophy from 1940 onwards - I suspect there are some gaps for eastern philosophy)
  • Ascended Master + metaphysics: = No records
  • Lady Master Nada + metaphysics = no records
  • Morya + metaphysics = no records
  1. JSTOR, arts and sciences only (doesn't have all journals, but has very good coverage of types of journals, and excellent date range)
  • Ascended Master + metaphysics: = no records
  • Lady Master Nada + metaphysics = no records
  • Morya + metaphysics = no records
  1. ISI Web of knowledge Arts and humanities citation index (very comprehensive, but only good for reasonably recent articles (1975 onwards)
  • Ascended Master + metaphysics: = 1 record to RELIGION 34 (3): 163-189 JUL 2004 for "ascended master" alone, "Alien demonology: The Christian roots of the malevolent extraterrestrial in UFO religions and abduction spiritualities". This discusses theosophy, but, does not link "ascended master" to philosophical metaphysics
  • Lady Master Nada + metaphysics = no records
  • Morya + metaphysics = no records
  1. Google... okay, not the most reliable of tools, but this also fails to come up with any reliable secondary sources that connect these topics to the philosophical discipline of metaphysics. I am not going to put much more time into this argument. There are more important things in life! Anarchia 02:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

i created the category metaphysics(other) for the articles that do not fit into the category as described.--Buridan 15:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re: adding external links

I think that www.askrealjesus.com and www.mothermarysgarden.com ought to be added as external links. These are Ascended Master sponsored sites that deserve their rightful place among the Ascended Master teachings, as they are currently being given as progressive revelation. The amount of teachings & practical tools on the sites is unheard of. No one has exclusivity over the Ascended Masters, including The Temple of the Presence, which is bringing forth a bunch of gibberish in my opinion. But authenticity is not really relevant when you're dealing with this subject for wikipedia. There's no reason why these sites shouldn't be included. Presterjohn64 (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] merge proposal

There has been a proposal to merge this article with "Ascended Master Teachings". I disagree with this. It would be the same as suggesting merging "Saints" or "Angels" with the article on the "Roman Catholic Church" or "Christianity". Arion (talk) 23:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a question of notability from reliable sources. The standards are at WP:N and WP:SOURCES. Fireplace (talk) 23:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are some reliable sources:
  • Partridge, Christopher ed. New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities Oxford University Press, USA 2004. pages 330 - 334
  • Lewis, James R. Church Universal and Triumphant in Scholarly Perspective Center For Academic Publication 1994.
  • Braden, Charles S. These Also Believe MacMillan Publishing Company 2000 pages 257 - 307
Numerous additional references are found in the article itself. Arion (talk) 16:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)