Talk:As I Lay Dying (novel)

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[edit] Addie's opinion on her children

I have changed the sentence near the end stating that Addie regards all her children dismissively but one to all but two. Remember that though she clearly favors Jewel, she also loves (without using the empty word) Cash for "violating" her, making him the first person she feels a connection with. If anybody disagrees with this change, feel free to revert it, but please put your reasoning here. --queso man 23:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if it's fair to say she feels dismissively towards Darl and Dewey Dell, even Vardaman. She definitely does love Cash (and obviously Jewel).
Yes, she doesn't quite dismiss Darl; she instead dislikes him. As for the other two, not enough information is given. I didn't want to change this too radically without a proper discussion, though. --queso man 22:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
In her one chapter, I got this impression: She feels that the births of both Cash and Darl violated her. As revenge, she has an affair with Whitfield (who she really doesn't love) and Jewel is born. She loves Jewel. To 'pay for' or 'cancel out' Jewel's birth she 'gives' Anse Dewey Dell. Finally, they have Vardaman, but by then she really doesn't care. So I would say it's fair to say she feels dismisively towards Dewey Dell and Vardaman. As for Darl, she hates his existance, although Darl loves her. I don't think she loves Cash (I saw no signs of that at all.) I think she merely pays attention to Cash's building the coffin because she is so preoccupied with her own death. I do remember now that she feels a connection with Cash because of how his birth "violated" her, but I wouldn't say she loves him. Am I totally off base, or do people agree with these statements (at least somewhat?) FerralMoonrender (MyTalk • MyContribs • EmailMe) 01:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
That's almost exactly how I thought of it. However, notice she only uses the term "violate" for Cash, and it's in a good context. Therefore, I think she meant violate in a good way. It's clear she disliked Darl based on that chapter, however. She loved Cash, as partially shown by her own chapter (sorry, don't still have the book; can't cite) and partially near the beginning, during which she looks out the window at Cash's work. You mentioned that she does this because she's preoccupied with her death, but if you combine it with my interpretation of Cash's birth in the above passage, it makes sense. I think the main problem in reaching a consensus on this is which interpretation to use it this, as it is very much up for debate. Remember, she hated the school children because they did not regard her as important and felt no connection with her. She beat them to make herself feel important and to force a connection. If she and Cash had such a connection, it would make sense that she would love him. --queso man 01:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I see where your coming from with the info about the school children. I would still debate the statement that she loved Cash, but that not really what this space is for. As you pointed out, it is very hard to write a section on this in the article specifically because of the debate, especially trying to keep with NPOV. Could we somehow include a brief section that discusses the debate and the different Points of View, without proclaiming one to be "right" and ths keep with NPOV? FerralMoonrender (MyTalk • MyContribs • EmailMe) 01:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
We could, although I'm not sure of the significance of this debate in particular. A lot of novel articles do have a section like that, and this is one of the most hotly debated novels from the time period, possibly the history of writing. I'm not familiar enough with the thematic conflict to start that section, though. --Qmwne235 22:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christlike-Figures Section

This needs to be completely rewritten or else deleted. It is atrocious. The two last paragraphs contradict each other in stating that different characters are "the Christ-like figure" to be found in the novel. Other gems include lines like "The true hero lives in the tension between thinking and acting…"

I will leave it up for a day as a grace period, but unless anyone familiar with the work steps up to rewrite this section, it will be removed. Ipsenaut 01:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the section was pretty bad, and it was probably original research considering it also had no references. But don't you think a day is a bit too short? I know it could be rewritten, but considering it's taken more than a year for someone to reply... --Qmwne235 16:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title Suggests Other Things

The Agamemnon quote refers to Greek rites including the lady with dog like eyes which is goddess Isis or the Holy Spirit and your dying is a prelude then to your rebirth as a Christlike figure or quetzacoatl ...

harkonen 19 @ atreides —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.247.22.112 (talk) 15:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

Yes,...furthermore, Agamemnon does not seem to address Odysseus in the whole of Book Eleven. So what is this title stuff from? It needs a citation.

I don't have a copy of The Odyssey on me at the moment, but the Editors' Note at the end of the First Vintage International Edition (October 1990) of As I Lay Dying agrees fully with the info in the article. It says says "When asked the source of his title, Faulkner would sometimes quote from memory the speech of Agamemnon to Odysseus, in the Odyssey, Book XI: " and then gives the exact same quote as in the article. FerralMoonrender (MyTalk • MyContribs • EmailMe) 03:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC) P.S. Please sign your posts. Thanks.

I think that the lady with the dog's eyes is Clytemnestra, personally. It was a Greek tradition that he or she who was closest to the one who was dying would close his/her eyes, I believe. Clytemnestra refused to do this because she hated Agamemnon and had killed him. Agamemnon was telling his story to Odysseus while the latter was in the underworld to get information from Teiresias. I have not read the Odyssey, but I have read the Oresteia, which led my to my hypothesis. --queso man 23:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Over-Promotion of English

Do we really need a reference, with links, to "the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, and other English-speaking countries"? Is the distinction between colleges and universities worth mentioning? Hasn't Faulkner received recognition outside Anglophonia?D021317c 03:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

He does have a lot of recognition outside of English-speaking countries (especially Sweden in 1951), but not as much as in English-speaking countries. I agree that that part should be removed. Also, in most countries, the difference between colleges and universities in this context is not worth noting. --Qmwne235 16:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Character Ages

Nowhere in the book does it actually give the exact ages of any of the characters, so I am curious as to where these numbers came from. Could the person who added them please give a citation? The book does state the childrens' relative ages, so If nobody comes up with a citation, I will change them to approximate ages or just "youngest," "oldest," etc. FerralMoonrender (MyTalk • MyContribs • EmailMe) 03:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For Darl, the age is mentioned. When Darl refers to Cash having done what he was doing for two years before he could have enjoyed it (Chapter 3), it is implied that he is two years younger. As for Vardaman, I have heard guesses from 5 to 14. I suppose the person who added this information chose 7-9 because of his general manner of thought and the fact that Tull could not see him when he opened the door, signifying that he is short. I don't know the reasoning behind the other two. --queso man 23:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It says Dewey Dell is 17 in, I beleive, Moseley's chapter 23:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it says so in there and in her own last chapter. I would like to correct my earlier statement. Darl's age is not given directly. However, Jewel is known to be within two years of age and older than Dewey Dell, and Darl is about ten years older than Jewel (I forgot where this can be found). It is implied that Cash is two years older than Darl in Darl's second chapter, the third in the book. Vardaman's age is never even implied; one possible conclusion is that he is 7-9, as per my reasoning above. --queso man 22:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a copy of the book on hand, but I'll believe you people about Dewey Dell being 17 and the other relative ages. The only thing I would be hesitant to put in is an age for Vardaman (even an estimate) as I have heard much debate as to whether he was just very young or actually mentally impared. Otherwise, It would be great if you would put in the relative ages, and that Dewey Dell is 17. I'll leave it to you, because as I said I don't have a copy of the book, so I don't have the exact facts. Thanks for all your help. FerralMoonrender (MyTalk • MyContribs • EmailMe) 01:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Vardaman's age is debatable. I remember my teacher telling me that Cliff Notes gave his age as 14, which both of us disagreed with. I personally got the impression that he was around 9; others though he was closer to 7. Having a variation in possible ages of 100% is a bit too much for a definite answer. The rest of them are roughly deducible from Dewey Dell's age and scattered hints mentioned earlier. --Qmwne235 22:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sections That Need To Be Added

I think the plot summary and Literary Techniques sections need to be expanded. I am definately willing to do this, but I don't have the time at this moment. I should be back in a couple days. The book is also very thematic, and the major themes absolutely must be covered (I sense some major debate will follow about what those themes are.) If it's not too much, a "reactions to / impacts of this book" section may be useful. And shouldn't we mention that it won a Nobel prize? FerralMoonrender (MyTalk • MyContribs • EmailMe) 01:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that is that the book itself didn't win the Nobel Prize, Faulkner did for all his work - in 1949, long after As I Lay Dying was written, and much closer to the date Intruder in the Dust was written (of course, he didn't win it for this either; the Nobel Prize is for a life's work).
I do agree that we do need a section on themes as soon as possible. --queso man 01:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation?

Surely the novel is more significant? 138.69.160.1 20:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, but probably not enough to warrant moving this to replace the disambiguation. After all, the band is somewhat famous. I'm not sure myself; the novel definitely is more important, but it seems that especially among younger people (like me), the band at least prevents the novel from obtaining that kind of almost universal recognition when the name is mentioned that's usually pretty common in articles for which there are disambiguations but that still have a title without any parenthetical descriptions. --Qmwne235 22:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The novel more significant? Hm, thats quite irrelevant. The band's well known too. Who these people who decide that the novel is more significant? Nothing is more signifcant than something else. "As i lay dying " should be a page where you have the choice between the novel and band...--Narayaan (talk) 19:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The general guideline is that if one possibility is much more notable than all the others, it should be the one to which readers are redirected. For example, Einstein redirects to Albert Einstein, not Einstein (disambiguation) or Einstein (crater). As for your statement that nothing is more notable than anything else, I would dispute that. Albert Einstein is certainly more notable than the crater. I'm still not sure the novel is much more notable (although it's much more significant) than the band. I would normally agree that we should make a disambiguation, but since the system has already been set up this way, I suppose it should stay that way, since both systems would probably work equally well. --Qmwne235 00:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dying87.jpg

Image:Dying87.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Doctor who?

Peabody, the doctor in the novel, responsible for at least one chapter of the books content, is not mentioned within the article. I do not know the book well enough to add him in myself, so would he be mentioned somewhere?Just another guy trying to be a Chemical Engineer, Nanobiotechnologist, and Mathematician (talk) 03:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right, and he seems to be a somewhat important character in the beginning. Even though you said that you aren't very familiar with the book, maybe you should just add a brief description of his activities and thoughts. Unfortunately, I no longer have a copy of the book, so I can't do it myself. Moseley would be another character it might by best to mention, but probably under Dewey Dell. --Qmwne235 00:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)