Talk:Arvanitika

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Archive: 2005 • October 2005-May 2006

Contents 1 Requested move 2 Arvanitika/Arvanitas are Albanians and of story 3 Language attrition 4 Unreliable source 5 Arvanitika and Epirotic language are synonyms 6 Arvanitika as an ancient greek dialect

[edit] Requested move

Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arvanitika/Arvanitas are Albanians and of story

Arvanitika Are very much the same people as Albanians. Physical traits of Arvanitika correspondents with Albanian one, notice that Dinaric race (wich is dominant in Albanians) also dominate north western Greece=Arvanitas native land.Trojani 10:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Wrong page. This page isn't about anybody's physical traits. Languages do not have physical traits. This page is about language and nothing else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Aigest 07:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC) I can not see how it can be called Graeco-Albanian language?! If you go to the sample in the end of the article you can see it that is pure Albanian language. I think this term (Graeco-Albanian) should be removed. Even if there are loanwords from Greek language it is purely an Albanian dialect.

The name has nothing to do with linguistic "purity" or lack thereof. It is merely a reflection of the fact that Arvanitic is an "Albanian" language spoken by Greeks, just like Judaeo-Spanish is the Spanish spoken by Jews, not a mixture of Castilian and Hebrew. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Aigest 14:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC) I don't think this comparison is acceptable. What about the language spoken by albanian emigrants that live in Greece? Yes they speak Greek but their language can not be called Albanian-Greek language!!! When you compare or decscribe languages, it has nothing to do with the etnicity of the people who speak that language. Yes there are a lot of people in all the world who can speak English but this doesn't make that Bulgarian-English or Japanese-English. There is another method for the classification of languages and it's not based on the ethnicity of the people who speaks it. And that's why I wrote that comment.

The designation "Graeco-Albanian" is here because it has been used to refer to the language. It's not important whether you agree with the authors who used it or not.--NetProfit 16:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can reconstruct, the use of the term in that paragraph was chosen as an English translation of the term ellinoalvaniki (dialektos), used in one of the more influential early linguistic treatments, by Fourikis. It seems to have been a somewhat tactical choice originally, in the context of an edit dispute, to avoid a more straightforward use of the appellation "Albanian", against which some editors were showing a somewhat irrational dislike. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Aigest 06:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC) Then it should not be used in the space dedicated to language. 1. It's not a Greek dialect 2. It's an Albanian dialect. I think this term should be moved toward the ethnicity of the people who speaks that language and not to the language itself. Anyway even the ethnicity of the people who speaks it is disputed. As per the Albanian side the Arvanit are the descendants of Albanian migrants to Greece, migration which happened from 12th to 15th century and which also can be seen in Arbëresh who live in Italy. As per Arvanits some declared themselves as Greek descendants some as Abanian-Greek descendants and some as Albanian descendants. It should be mentioned also, that there is not a single school in Greece in Arvanit language (although there are more than 300.000 speakers) and this is one of the reasons of its propable future extinction

Sourced text will not be removed and unsourced text will not be added.--NetProfit 07:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not particularly attached to that sentence in the intro. Whatever the thing has been called besides "Arvanitika" makes for a long list, there's no real need to do that in the intro. As for the offensiveness, that's also treated a bit further down. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language attrition

In recent times, linguists have observed signs of accelerated structural convergence towards Greek and structural simplification of the language, which have been interpreted as signs of language attrition, i.e. effects of impoverishment leading towards language death (Trudgill 1976/77; Thomason 2001, quoting Sasse 1992).

What does this mean? How can simplification in itself really be a sign of possible future language death?NetProfit 17:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the wording is a bit unclear then. The structural simplification is not in itself a cause of the impeding language death. It's a side effect, but a very characteristic one, of the attrition process, i.e. of the gradual loss of native-speaker competence that results from gradual decline of communicative practice, imperfect language learning by subsequent generations, etc. It's a phenomenon regularly observed in such situations and pretty well studied. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreliable source

http://www.albanianhistory.net/ is an unreliable source to say the least and original research is used again.Also the term was wrong and Geographic and this need be mentioned.Megistias (talk) 19:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arvanitika and Epirotic language are synonyms

Arvanitika and epirotic language are synonyms and is nothing to dispute here , this is well sourced , in case that you want not to mention certain things is OK with me , but we are her to write the history as it is and not to write as we like.

‘’ Marin Barleti The story of life and deeds of Skanderbeg, the prince of Epirotes. Rome 1506-1510’’

‘’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

‘’Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Correspondence on the Albanian Language1705-1715 [1]’’. --Besa Arvanon (talk) 13:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

To the roman the byzantine and the Ottoman empire.The albanians descent in Epirus in 1000 ad and move more to the south while living with the Greeks there.It was never part of Albania but of the Byzantine and the Ottoman empire since it has to do with 1000 AD and after.500 years later the name appears as a historical anachronismMegistias (talk) 13:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this you personal opinion i mean you tell the story with very much passion?!--Besa Arvanon (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

You are a troll and a sock puppet and a disruptor that logged on from dozens of times after being repeatedly banned.Megistias (talk) 14:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

What you can expect form self hating people without clear ethnicity as you are --Besa Arvanon (talk) 14:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arvanitika as an ancient greek dialect

Can Arvanitika been seen as the remains of an ancient Greek dialect?

Reference:In a sense, Tsakonian is both an endangered language and an endangered dialect, 7 just like Arvanitika, and its loss will be a loss for the Greek language and for Greece as a nation.[2]Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

No, absolutely not. And it has nothing to do with Tsakonian either. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I will add further reference and this interesting linguistic study.

Reference: Given that Ancient Greek had both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage and that there are numerous uncertainties about the prehistory of Albanian, it is tempting to think of these Greek-Albanian parallels as innovations that spread from Greek to Albanian, but such a spread would have occurred, if at all, in an early, pre-Balkanizing, period of contact between the languages. Alternatively, the occurrence of both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage in Ancient Greek and Albanian could be taken to warrant positing these as inheritances from Proto-Indo-European, even if they are not found elsewhere in the Indo- European family. Source : Author Brian D Joseph : Is Balkan Comparative Syntax Possible? [Version of August 28, 1998] [3] Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Arvanitika is Albanian and not Greek.Language Name  :Albanian, Arvanitika.We only know the Albanian of the middle ages and nothing at all before this.Arvanitika/Albanian cannot be an ancient Greek dialect.Megistias (talk) 10:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Further reference from : Κωνσταντίνος Μπίρης. Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του σύγχρονου ελληνισμού. Αθήνα. 1981.Dodona --Burra (talk) 11:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Heheh, this is funny. Two years ago, we had hordes of Albanian contributors hotly arguing that Arvanitika was just simply Albanian, and hordes of Greek contributors, quoting Biris, arguing just as hotly that it was not. Anyway, Biris is not a reliable source when it comes to linguistics. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Well you are right but now it is another status because it is accepted that Arvantika is a form of Albanian.Dodona --Burra (talk) 14:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Epirotik language/Arvanitika/Tosk Albanian is a dialect of ancient Greek language

Reference:"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the 'northwest' Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes." "[...]a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians." "The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus)." Borza, Eugene N. (1992). In the Shadow of Olympus: the Emergence of Macedon (Revised Edition). Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press.Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This says that its Greek.Megistias (talk) 10:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

You are so fast , unbelievable, yes it is a dialect of Ancient Greek,Epirotika .Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This refers to the Greek language and the Greeks not the Albanian and the Albanians.Megistias (talk) 10:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Stop trolling.Megistias (talk) 10:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

i am not trolling.stop offending and insulting me Dodona --Burra (talk) 10:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

No need to talk of trolling, but Megistias is obviously right: The "Epirotic" your source is talking about is ancient Epirotic Greek, it's not the same Epirotic as the later Epirotic Albanian you find mentioned under that name in early modern sources. The one has nothing to do with the other except the name. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Epirotic Greek, it's the same Epirotic as the later Epirotic Albanian, it is not a misname, but currently it is and also a misunderstanding, I would like to mention these modern sources that after all are comparable .

1.Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark.[4]

2.Reference Albania Synonims (Shqipëria) Arbania/Arbanon, Epirus The Republic of Albania (Republika e Shqipërisë) since 1991. Previously the People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1976); the People's Republic of Albania (1946); the Kingdom of Albania (1928); and the Republic of Albania (1925). Although its independence was recognized in principle in 1912, it was made a protectorate of the Great Powers. Source :"Albania" Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names. John Everett-Heath. Oxford University Press 2005

3.Reference : “The fate of Albanian people and territories during Roman rule was that , they lived as free people but in social hierarchy they had a place between Romans civil right and slaves who had not right at all , the first mention with the name Albanoi or Arber was by Ptolemy of Alexandri 2nd c. A.D one of the free Illyrian tribes. The Illyrian military began to play important role in Roman life ,seven of Roman Emperors were Illyrians and they ruled in succession, the Illyrian Emperor Dioclean administrative reorganization Albanian territory in three provinces : Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. “ Source : Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanians identities .. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA 1999 [5]

4.Reference : The political situation in Albania prior to the Ottoman invasion had been very complicated because of the high level of feudal partitioning of the country. There were several independent principalities ruled by the most powerful Albanian feudal lords: of Durrës in Central Albania, ruled by Carlo Thopia; of despot Spat in Epirus; of the Balsha family in Northern Albania; of Theodore Muzaka of Berat, comprising the lands around Berat…….By the beginning of 1386 the lord of Yanina, the Florentine Esau Buondelmonti declared his vassalage to the Ottomans and confirmed it appearing in person in the town of Edirne. In the same period, his southern neighbour and rival Albanian despot Gjin Bua Spata, had to do the same. Until his death in 1400 despot Gjin Bua Spata more than once resorted to Ottomans help in the wars he waged against the Rhodes Knights Hospitallers, who at that time made efforts to gain a firm foothold in Lepanto and Corinth. Individual members of the Albanian clan of Muzaka also became Ottoman vassals” Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanian identities 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA1999 [6]

5.Arvanitia was synonym of Albania called by Greeks (Arvanites ) , Arvanites came partly from Epirus spoke a form of Albanian language and consider themselves as real Greek. Oxford English Dictionary 2007

6.According to the anthropological studies of Theodoros K. Pitsios, Arvanites in the Peloponnese in the 1970s were physically indistinguishable from other Greek inhabitants of the same region. This may indicate that either the Arvanites shared extant physical similarities with other Greek populations or that early Arvanite groups extensively incorporated parts of the autochthonous Greek population.^[1][2]Dodona --Burra (talk) 10:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Its a misnaming and any other theory against all logic and sources.

• 1.Barletti is a medieval writer.Irrelevant.
• 2.Irrelevant.You used this and your other source many times and repeatedly rejected and debunked by me & by admins and by your mentor.
• 3.Irrelevant.
• 4.Once more irrelevant
• 5.A typical anachronism.Irrelevant.
• 6.Indicating that they mixed with Greeks and therefore changed anthropologically or that they were Greeks that were Albanised in the past.Irrelevant and actually against your claims"autochthonous Greek population" so albanians were newcomers and had nothing to do with epirus or illyria.What is weird is that you used the above and similar ones all the times and they were all rejected but you just keep at it.

Megistias (talk) 10:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The bias you show is very clear,please do not offend, as you see this is a combination of sources of course relevent, i suggest you not to complain about me around because is nothing to complain for, the references are considered most of them worth by my Mentor and i respect him,very much better then you i am affraid, sorry ee..and for the news if you do not like it,P.S Mixed with the Greeks ??.Dodona--Burra (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Albanian and Arvanitika have Nothing to do with Ancient Greek nor do albanians or arvanitesTree for Albanian.You only want to provoke me and its very clear since you use a source saying that Epirotes were Greeks and simply declare from your imagination that they were albanian.Megistias (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)