Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Margret Heater

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[edit] Please revert deletion

I just signed into my account to see this article deleted, without having being able to respond. I had last logged in last week, so I know it hasn't even been 7 days and I did not see this as something to be brought to my attention. AFAIK, the article was salient to Wikipedia because at least three of the former members are and continue to be in notable, signed and International acts such as Jimmie's Chicken Shack, Bleed the Dream, and Dog Fashion Disco. Not only that, they had played more than once the infamous HFStival, one of the largest Summer Music Festivals in the United States. So if that does not meet the criteria, could you please explain to me where I fell short in meeting that, and not only that, but give me the arguments in which you felt it was relevant to delete. Thanks in advance for your reply. immunity 23:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] taken from my user talk page

First of all, I find that since I have become aware of this issue, my response from the persons involved in the speedy deletion of this article without any consideration of thoughts, since it did not get a full seven day review at the very least. So here is where the matter is now:

It's not that I'm saying the band wasn't notable, it's just that it wasn't stated or sourced in the article. If you've got the sources, I'd be willing to support a deletion review. RJASE1 05:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I will concede that this article still needed much work, but being that many of the sources I have were in hard copy or on non-existing sites (web sites die a slow death), I was trying to come back at it with more preparation before copyediting it to completion. The comment about it not being in the all music guide is subjective, as this was not a prevelent website at the height of the band's existance, even though it is said to have been around since 1991, as someone who has had her nose to the industry grindstone, It wasn't until of late that I have even used it. I do have the sources, not to mention it was linked to other articles that were in support of the article. They did win awards and I can link those as well. A simple this article needs more sourcing or citation or whatever banner would have sufficed. A delete banner was way too hasty. And I should know, I am an admin on several other wiki's and I really take in to all accounts of an article before I submit it for deletion. They still have their movie coming out this year in which the entire band was in the cast and on the soundtrack: Lobster movie and Baltimore City Paper review, for some examples. Also, the music montly archive in Baltimore has several articles, if I could get their permalinks, I would think that would also support my case.

Such as the one entry I have found here:

HFSTIVAL 2002 RFK Stadium May 25 & 26, 2002 Have you recovered? The bands! The DJ’s! The freaks! Except for Alien Ant Farm who got sidelined in Spain, we all turned out for DC’s Memorial Day weekend tradition of Full On Mayhem at RFK. Even Kelly Osbourne represented! Band lineup included Dashboard Confessional, Good Charlotte, Our Lady Peace, Trik Turner, Papa Roach, P.O.D., X-Ecutioners, Sev, Quarashi, B.R.M.C., N.E.R.D., Our Lady Peace, The Strokes, Sum 41, Hoobastank, Eminem, The Little Kingz, The Lloyd Dobler Effect, New Found Glory, Abandoned Pools, Loudermilk, Gob, Citizen Cope, The Vines, Goldfinger, Phantom Planet, Green Machine, Rezin, Rotoglow, Phaser, Moodroom, Lennex, UXB, Jepetto, Val Yumm, Swift Holly, Jah Works, Combination Lock, Fidel, Cactus Patch, Margret Heater and Imbue. The killer Buzz Tent lineup included DC Grammy Award-winners Deep Dish, Morel, Timo Maas, Sandra Collins, Dave Ralph, Starecase Sound System, Micro, Scott Henry, John Tab, William Dieter, Switchstance, Adegen, Jen Lasher, Simon, Miah, Sinestro, and the man who started the worldwide Rave movement, Paul Oakenfold, who closed both the Main Stage Saturday night and the Buzz Tent on Sunday. Here’s a scrapbook of a few highlights. See you there next year! MIM Papa Roach Q&A on Sunday: How do you like DC? Jacoby: “Last time we were here we did a free (WHFS) show at the Power Plant in Baltimore. DC rocks! They’re off the hook!” Comment on the darkness of your lyrics? Jacoby: “Yeah, definitely we’ve got a dark side to our music, but if I didn’t have my music to express my dark side, I would be that depressed all the time, so it’s really a good outlet. We don’t want to encourage anyone to do anything. It’s like, f### a hero, be yourself, just follow your dream.” What kind of fan feedback do you get? Jacoby: “I met these two girls from Scotland a couple days ago and they said they had our name tattooed on them and I was like, whoa, that’s strange, why’d you do that? It’s crazy because, you know, people between 15 and 25, it’s that period of trying to figure yourself out and attach to something. A lot of our songs deal with everyday life issues, so when you’re in that searching-for-something mode and you hear a song that’s about what you’re going through, you attach yourself to it.” Are there any artists who were a prototype for what you’re doing now? Dave: “Yeah, I have to say, talking about connectivity with lyrics, the first time I heard Pearl Jam’s ‘Alive,’ I was 13 and that was exactly my situation as far as not having a father figure, realizing it’s the person raising you, not the person who is biologically your father, that whole issue. That song meant a lot to me when I was a kid so I think if someone hears a Papa Roach song and feels the same thing, that would be cool.”

I find it very notable that Margret Heater once had Papa Roach open for them and now the members of both bands are still close.

What else do I need? -- immunity 19:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Immunity, since you did not get a chance to defend the article during the AFD, I'm happy to re-list for more discussion. I recommend you first build up the article in your user space at User:Immunity/Marget Heater, then move it to article space when you're ready. That way you can find all the references that will be needed to survive AFD, before someone preemptively nominates it for deletion again. (And note that "I have the references here in front of me" is not good enough; they need to be reliable sources and listed in the article itself; see WP:RS.) Please do find better evidence of notability than "Papa Roach opened for them", if possible; see WP:MUSIC for guidelines of determining whether a band is notable. Let me know if you need the previous version of the article moved to your user space. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-02-16 21:18Z

Quarl, First question, to you is do you have the ability to access the article from its last state before deletion and place it one one of my sandbox pages? Like User:Immunity/Marget Heater2. I am working on restoring it now on the link you provided, which is, just as this whole argument overly unnecessary due to the hasty actions of some zealous powers of delete. I assure you, I let the main contributors of an article chime in before I would ever do such a thing on either wiki that I am an admin on.
I shouldn't HAVE to recreate my work, but If not, I can get an archive from another site that indexes Wikipedia, but it will not be an exact mirror. Secondly, the article should have been marked needs additional sources. It had been to my knowledge was very notable as to my arguements as placed above and said over and over. It was a stepping stone band for members of other bands who are also extremely notable. Not just the Papa Roach reference, that was just additional fact. Third, I have these links, some permalinks, some just archived and actual physical books, magazines (one of which was Uhero magazine where they were the cover article for that month) and festival programs. All of which I am sure I can site, but before the time of deletion, did not get all inclusive in. I do not feel this should have been deleted as I have stringently said over and over as it met notible guidelines, but have conceded it was not thoroughly cited. In which case a simple banner that this article lacks sources would have called my attention to come back and update the article. Now I am quite aware of wiki guidelines, policy, and procedures as I am an admin for a well established global wiki and considered a lead gardener on another. I do not need to be treated as someone who just wants to write willy nilly story about something non-significant. I would appreciate that if I just so choose to use it again in the namespace it will not be deleted again because aside from sourcing, it was still a significantly developed article which was supplemental for several other articles, which are now all seeing red links. The very thing I despise to see on a wiki. immunity 21:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Immunity, I've undeleted the article Margret Heater to your userspace at User:Immunity/Margret Heater2. I'm glad you have opinions on how to properly run a Wiki, perhaps you'll be interested in becoming an administrator on this Wiki some day. Cheers —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-02-17 12:51Z

Thanks's Quarl, thats going to save me a lot of time. As for being an admin on here, I know I could contribute a lot to the efforts of the project, but at this time in my career, I don't have as much free time to contribute to be on that level on this wiki. Maybe later in the year I could consider it. I would think also one of the pre-reqs is to get on IRC and have a higher edit count and show more diversity in editing. Again, more things that would probably not be recognized as efforts I have on here, though I am well-versed. Cheers back. immunity 17:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Post post follow up

Just looking at what the mirror had on about.com there were two cited sources in the article, granted as I have said time and time again, they could have been more, but it was not completely lacking in citations. Also I just noticed that they were signed to Fowl Records at one point in their career, another article I need to get back to working on, but nonetheless it was an established record lable, thus adding to the many notable facts about this band. Proving more and more to me, that the deletion was completely and utterly unthoroughly researched and uncalled for, again, please revert so I can continue to bring it up to proper standards. immunity 21:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)