Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Hornet Mafia

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[edit] Verifiability via Google

Hit number 6 on Google for "hornet mafia" is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Wiarthurhu How is that verifiable and not original research? Dual Freq 22:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It's only evidence that even Wikipedia is a place where this term has appeared. WP, by the way, is not often not a very good source, as the difficulty I have had in fixing some stubborn errors demonstrates. --matador300 01:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to an aviation or industry periodical that has used this term? Where did you first see it in print? Dual Freq 01:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you name a Navy official who was in the Hornet Mafia? Dual Freq 10:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
What about the AEGIS Mafia or the NTU Mafia? There are a half dozen usenet references on them, certainly some folks disappointed with that decision as well. However, none of them deserves an article. You haven't even named one member of this alleged mafia. Dual Freq 22:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah, I found a Grumman Mafia note on usenet as well as a couple google hits on Tomcat Mafia. I'd better head off and make a couple new articles. Dual Freq 03:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from the article page

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[edit] Extraneous comments moved from main page

So as not to clutter up the votes:


  • Comment The sheer number of references, and its relevance to the issue already on the F-14 article, the controversy over the preference for the F-18 over the F-14 means that this is just as worth including as the "Fighter Mafia". The only difference is that Hornet Mafia hasn't hit the books yet, and that's entirely possible as some F-18 books have been published that can't be searched from the internet.--matador300 01:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The sheer number of references...as in 34. Shocking.--Mmx1 01:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment It can also be observed that this particular editor is the only editor on the aviation side who has shown a pattern of attacks against this editor currently on display by many of the editors on the automobile project pages, and various mediations and rfCs against me. A list of tactics that distress me appear on my talk page. His first aFD was specifically directed against the content of just one entry, the F-111 even though his successful deletion also erased the work of dozens of previous authors. It is my interpretation that this editor uses AfDs as part of a large pattern of agressive action against the work of other authors, which thankfully has largely subsided until this nomination. While I am told that it may not neccesarily so, it is my belief that the 1st AFD has insprired a of flurry of AFD's against worst and best automobiles in the automobile space, greatly upsetting and harming many editors who do not want to see these carefully constructed articles destroyed forever. --matador300 01:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Fighter mafia, an term created to attack the F-14 is entirely appropriate for WP, Hornet Mafia is a similar term. --matador300 17:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • No, you have no idea what you're talking about. The term fighter mafia, as cited by sources on the Light Weight Fighter page, was created by Col. Riccioni to describe himself. Boyd, Christie, and Sprey who were advocating the use of E-M to design fighters...within the Air Force. Hornet mafia is a contraption of random internet users. --Mmx1 20:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Ha, even Mmx1 admits it exists as a "contraption of random internet users". Therefore, it exists, as one philosipher stated. And if it causes a controversy, it is therefore notable. --matador300 00:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Maybe I should nominate Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy for deletion as well??--matador300 00:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Hornet Mafia was even used on the F-14 article talk page by people who are nominating this for deletion!! --matador300 00:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Delete this one too, Thumbs Up --matador300 00:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • comment Here is evidence that even officials have used the term, has anyone read the book by this admiral?? This is not a random person.--matador300 00:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

From: Joe@bsfilter.com - view profile Date: Wed, Dec 23 1998 12:00 am Email: nobrai...@unleesrjed.Clampet (J...@bsfilter.com) Groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 07:42:09 -0500, "Jon" <j...@eznet.net> wrote: >Personally I think politics had a lot to do with it. If you get a chance to >read Admiral Gillcrists' book, "Tomcat The Grumman F-14 Story", I think it >will shed some light. The Tomcat program was never a popular one in >Washington. My personal opinion is that was why it never got the engine >upgrade it needed and also why it was ultimately cancelled. Again, just my >opinion........but I think Admiral Gillcrist felt the same way.

Didn't someone in the defense department/Navy , blow his top. Heard at an appropriation meeting or some such thing , he lashed out at the " Hornet Mafia " , (his words I believe) that were In his opinion trying to shove super hornets down the Navy's throat ?

Joe

  • Comment And guess who made the first appearance of Hornet Mafia on the Wikipedia??

User talk:Wiarthurhu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I doubt they're subject to the "hornet mafia". The F-14 not the most capable air-superiority fighter - the F-15 is undeniably superior in most respects, ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Wiarthurhu It was on my talk page, but wasn't me. It was another editor who is familiar with and uses the term, but denies that deserves being acknowledged to even exist --matador300 00:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The difference between "hornet mafia" and "fighter mafia" and "vast right-wing conspiracy" are that the latter two are well sourced by reliable sources. Fighter mafia in the sources laid out in Light Weight Fighter, VRWC has thousands of news hits and was originally coined (or popularized) by Hillary Clinton. One the other hand, you have a newsgroup post from some guy that thinks he read it in Gillchrist's book. Yea....right. I mock its use; but that doesn't mean it's notable enough for encyclopedic entry. --Mmx1 01:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)