Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Hank Bergman (2nd nomination)

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[edit] Fight Record

Fact: Miami Herald Listed Bergman's record as 47-5 (47 knockouts) in 2004 (I have the orginal clipping). Bergman defeated three opponents in one tournament. Again, reported in the Herald (I have the original clipping). His age is anywhere from 48-50, but I have been unable to find his birthdate. In a number of Herald articles Bergman is listed throughout the years 14-1 (14 first round KO), 19-2 (19 first round KO), 23-4 (22 first round KO), 27-4 (26 first round KO), etc. In Official Karate he was listed as 12-1 (12 first round KO), 13-1 (13 first round KO). Some of his KO's which appeared in the paper: KO 1 18 seconds-Wilver Johnson, 23 seconds Morsak. In other words, just because YOU never heard of a fighter with these stats doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's truley sad to me, that some people here have a very nagaztive way about stating their facts. But, the facts are in black & white. There is NOT ONE BOGUS report here. None. I have the documentation to support every reference listed here:DavidToma (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment. If you have the documentation, would you mind uploading the clippings to a website, such as picasa, so we can verify them? Also, I would ask that you address the questions I posed above. Mrprada911 (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment I've followed kickboxing for a long time, train muay thai and collect fight records. I got over 2000+ edits here all on kickboxing and kickboxers. Pretty much been contributing on most of the kickboxers pages here in wikipedia. Nobody in a history of professional boxing or kickboxing has ever had 100% KO ratio throughout their career, not even Rocky Marciano. I know how hard it is to find fight records, specially on kickboxers, and now suddenly you have a full rec down on this guy, who's nobody ever heard of, competing somewhere "on the backroads and in the small towns of the Southern kickboxing circuit" - (plz provide the name of this fighting circuit) and then claim that you've been unable to find his date of birth? Since you seem to have an access of all these "sources" you gotta answer this - the name of the event, when and where and in what rules he beat those three argentinian guys all in one day as a 50+ year old @ 149 pounds? And whatta hell is sling-shot punch? (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 10:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC))

You say that you have all the original "clippings", give me the names of all these events he fought as a 40 year old pro kickboxer in 2000s? I wanna contact Florida Athletic commission to see if there was ever fighters license issued on Bergman's name. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 10:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Uploaded Newspaper Stories & Clippings

I uploaded a number of newspaper stories on Sherman (Big Train) Bergman from the Miami Herald, Foudacion Brasil, & EDWORKS. Hope this helps. I have more articles if you need more "evidence" that Sherman Bergman not only is a living, breathing person, but a kickboxer of note:DavidToma (talk) 18:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)Also, I believe that he only fought in Florida against Van Damme under Full-Contact Karate rules. I believe that he fought in Georgia & the Carolinas in the 1980s & 1990s, and Wyoming in the 2000s, but really not sure.

You don't have to upload any "clippings". i just need names of the events. I'm not disputing that he's living and breathing person here. So far you have not given any detailed facts about the events, rules, dates and locations. How odd you said he only fought once in Florida, in 1976 against van Damme, probably the only guy on his record verifiable and the only one who doesn't have the exact fight date. i thought he was from Florida, all your "clippings" are from Florida and i thought you said he was a local cult hero, suddenly he hardly ever fought there??? Seems like you've been fooling a lot of people here with your "original clippings" and mysterious sources stories. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 21:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC))
  • Please provide a link/URL for the newspaper stories for WP:V. Thank you. Mrprada911 (talk) 04:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] STAR SYSTEM COMPUTER RANKINGS

Paul Maslak of the old STAR SYSTEM COMPUTER RANKINGS had Bergman in his data base back in 1983. Bergman was 14-0 with 14 knockouts at the time. I'm no expert on KO ratio's, but Ricardo Moreno the boxer had 59 knockouts in 60 wins, Don Steele was 45 knockouts in 46 wins, Billy Fox was 52 knockouts in 53 fights, Tyronne Brunson is currently 18-0 (18 first round knockouts). Anyhow, one thing I dislike about you is your aggressive & negative attitude towards me. I have nothing to gain here & only like kickboxing. I've done work on a number of martial artists here & not only Bergman. Also, YOU keep insisting that NO ONE EVER HEARD OF BERGMAN, yet he appears in numerous legit newspapers & in OFFICIAL KARATE MAGAZINE & in THE STAR SYSTEM COMPUTER RANKINGS , and was considered by Official Karate staff writer as a promising prospect in 1984 & 1985. Enough said. I'm done arguing about this. Do what ever the heck you want with this information. As I've said before, I'm not related to this guy, nor am I a friend, nor have I even met him. I'm just a fan of off-beat fighters like Bergman, Chris Allen, Eddie Abele, Harold "Nature Boy" Roth, etc. Guess you never heard of any of those guys either, so I guess they are just a figment of my "demented" mind. Good luck & all my best in your search for Big Foot:DavidToma (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fighters with 100% knockout Records or close

  • Kenny Klingman: 20-0 (20 knockouts). The Herald reported him as 24-0 (24 knockouts)
  • Scott Daley: 24-0 (24 knockouts)
  • Fighting Bob Martin: 41-wins (40 KO) in boxrec. In the old Ring Record Books: He was listed as 87 wins (87 kniockouts).
  • Terry Kreuger: 36 wins (35 knockouts)
  • Salamo Arouch: 33-0 (33 knockouts)
  • all this info is on boxrec.com. I'm sure if I had the time I'd find more.
I was sure you're gonna dig something out about 100% KO ratio. According to you Sherman had half of those 1 round KO's in first 0:30 seconds??? He was fighting "dummies" or what. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC))
  • I keep coming back for more. First off, YOU said that having a 100% KO ratio was unheard of in kickboxing & boxing. Sorry, but YOU were incorrect. "According to me", I base my findings on concrete facts. Why did he KO guys in 30 seconds? How the heck would I know? Maybe his opponents were third raters, maybe they were inexperienced, how the heck can I logicaly answer a question like like. Many fighters have destroyed third raters in mere seconds. Heavyweight boxer Terry Krueger destroyed guys in 12 seconds, 14 seconds, 23 seconds. Heavyweight LaMar Clark who fought Ali in 1961, once KO'd 6 opponents in one night. Clark scored 44 (some say 43) straight opponents & KO'd 30 in one year. Clearly his competition & clearly Bergman's are/were third rate at best. Again, I just don't get your point. Official Karate reported Bergman's 23 second KO over Morsak. Doesn't list the location of the fight, only the final result. Johnny Diaz in the Herald in 1991 reports Bergman's 18 second KO over Wilver "Rio" Johnson, but doesn't list the location of the fight. The Brazilian paper which I uploaded & is not in the English Language lists Bergman's knockouts, but doesn't list locations. You are Assuming that I know every aspect of Bergman's career, I do not. What I know is from the research I've made. You mention how's it possible I don't know Bergman's birthdate. Well, it's simple, it's never been listed in the paper. Round & round we go & still your personality doesn't change. Your pal Mr. East was so quick to bash me & after finding info on Bergman, ignored me just like you. You know it all & I know nothing. Oh well:DavidToma (talk) 01:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Kickbing 100% KO ratio

  • World Kickboxing Heavyweight Champion Joe Lewis never won a fight on decision. I believe he was 12-3 with 12 knockouts.

[edit] I REST MY CASE

You said there has never been a boxer or kickboxer with a 100% KO ratio in Boxing or Kickboxing. I just proved that there have been & I'm 100% sure there are a lot more. Funny, they listed Andy Anderson as 87-0 (87 knockouts) in his UFC debut against Big John Hess & I never heard any expert or writer or anyone dispute this claim. Whatever. Peace Out:DavidToma (talk) 19:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's Anderson's fight rec on sherdog [1]. And you're probably one of those guys who believs that Benny Urquidez never lost a fight. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 21:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] You got a real attitude problem

Why are you taking this "discussion" like a personal attack. If you are an editor or an expert, why do you sink to a level where you call me "demented". Also, you constantly attack my credability. You don't ask questions, because you already have the answer. The joke is, I'm a big fan of MMA, Full-Contact, etc. & trust me, I'm not here to "mess this place up". I know Andy Anderson is 0-1 on sherdog, what I said was, he was billed & introduced as 87-0, 87 knockouts before his fight with John Hess & no one was in an uproar about it....the way you are now. Oh yeah, I don't think Benny The Jet in undeafeated. He clearly lost to Billy Jackson in West Palm Beach, as he lost two fights in Thailand. I know a lot more about MMA then you think. I'm done getting into a clearly "immature debate" with you. If you are a true Martial Artist, you would know that "Respect" is a key term. You should behave in a mature way & treat others like you would like to be treated. By the way, you completely ignored the fact that you said, " In that in the whole history of boxing & kickboxing that there wasn't a fighter with a 100% KO ratio. I proved that to be untrue, but you totally ignore what I have to say. Finally, I never even started that article on Bergman, I just added to it The "experts" here thought nothing of attacking me right off that I "faked & hoaxed" Bergman from the Miami Herald. Yet, once it was proved he exists in their newspaper, you again totally ignored that fact. In other words, Everything I say and do is "fake" & "bogus", and everything you say and do is "Lexpert". So, I'm in a no win situation. I can't rational debate or discuss with you, so I'm not going to. I leave it up to the managers here to decide what to do with all this. Keep it or Delete it, Frankly, I no longer care:DavidToma (talk) 23:02, 19

Being mentioned in Miami Herald doesn't make him a notable fighter. He has never held any titles, State, National, or World. You've failed to provide any fight reports, names of the events and where they took place to back up his unreal fight record. Its not a personal attack, i just hate to see how this article is misleading thousands of people reading wikipedia. I've seen threads created on fight forums, guys asking what is "Sling shot punch?" who is this Sherman Bergman? and then the usual answer "Where did you read that, from Wikipedia? Cmon don't believe everything you read from there."

I don't have a problem being wrong, just show me, prove me that everything written about Bergman is true? ...Specially his record. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 08:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] At last some Rational Discussion

Ok, at least this debate has become more mature. Okay, let me address some of your concerns. First off you write, "Being mentioned in Miami Herald doesn't make him a notable fighter." Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree. The Miami Herald is not a small local newsletter, I googled searched & saw there are over 272,299 people read the Miami Herald Daily & 342,432 on Sundays! So, when the Herald writes a story on someone over a quarter-of-a-million people read the story. Bergman has had two articles written (which I uploaded) in which he had an entire page written about him. Fighters like Steve Sheppard, Oaktree Edwards, & Tony Palmore who were PKA World Heavyweight Champions, got less press then Bergman. Also, Bergman has appeared in Official Karate Magazine (Which was a major publication in the 70s & 80s), News For You, Argentina Hoy, Fundacion/Brasil, Trensetter, and EDWORKS. He also appeared in a number of local newsletters, which I admit are meaningless. Next,"He has never held any titles, State National or World." First off, a fighter doesn't have to be a world champion to be notable. I believe that Bergman is notable not only for his long string of first-round knockouts (clearly scored over 2nd raters), but for the fact that he is a certified school teacher who uses his martial arts & kickboxing career as a tool to help numerous charities & to inspire students in his classes. That's the problem here & maybe that's the problem with the way the Wikipedia article about him is written, it losses the whole idea about his career, not that he fought Van Damme or KO'd 50plus foes, but that he is a postive role model as a fighter for his community & the kickboxing world at large. Next, "You failed to present any fight reports". I upload his fights with Byrd,& Drane. I uploaded articles which covered his fights with Morsak, Johnson, and Wilfredos. I uploaded articles from newspaper that listed his record as 27-4 (27 knockouts, 26 in the first round), 30-4 (30 knockouts), and 37-4. I'm looking through my newspaper archives & have more which I will upload. Also, I have 3 of Bergman's promo cards which lists highlights of his fight career. These can be found on some of his fan bases & list many of his bouts.Finally, you are implying that Bergman is only on google & internet searches because of Wikiped. You wrote that Bergman's article has been up since 2005. I researched all of Bergman's fan clubs on the net and four of them were created between July 18, 2000 & August 30, 2000, some 5 years before the Wiki article about him even existed. Also, as I've shown, Bergman was fighting as far back as the late 70s & 80s way before the internet:DavidToma (talk) 18:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

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Image:Sports1981.jpg

Alright thats really something. Out of all his unbelievable kickboxing record you've managed two come up with two of his Amateur Golden Gloves bouts. Both losses... "a fighter doesn't have to be a world champion to be notable." - he has to be some kinda champion. Last week, an article bout Jose Barradas was deleted, he's current cruiserweight WKA European champion but fellow wikipedians thought he's not notable enough. Bergman supposedly had his last fight in 2006, and thats deep in internet era do you have anything about these fights?. I admire your effort thou.. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 21:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC))

  • I do & will upload as soon as I find them. I already uploaded his 1996 fight with Jua, his fights with Johnson, Morsak, & Wilfredos....you have to read those articles I uploaded. They stretch from 1980-1999:DavidToma (talk) 22:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidToma (talk • contribs) 22:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)