Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yamanote Halloween Train

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. While it certainly appears to (verifiably) exist, simply not enough claims to notability were submitted. The entry needs more reliable sources. The arguments brought by those who favour keeping the entry appear to range from sloppy, grossly unrefined google hits analysis (i.e. you do need the quotes to narrow the search), including the echoing these distorted/inflated findings — to anecdotal, presonal experiences and similar reiterations. This falls bellow our notability standards. El_C 11:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yamanote Halloween Train

Article appears to be based on personal experience and rumour (see article talk page). Unverifiable. Exploding Boy 18:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 10:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, to my surprise. I thought that this was going to be a clear delete, but a Google search throws up a surprising number of hits. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
    It's not a lot once you add a leading quote. [1] Regards, Ben Aveling 05:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Seems like a noteworthy event. Needs more sources, though. Shimeru 20:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Chacy 23:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Blogs, forums, and Flickr pages ain't reliable sources, especially for something as non-notable and small as this. Could probably be deleted as db-spam, to boot. And speaking as a gaijin living in Tokyo, I've never heard of this, but it'll remind me not to ride the Yamanote that night. --Calton | Talk 02:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Speaking as a gaijin living in Tokyo five years now, I heard about it when I first arrived and I even rode on it last year. I've talked to a number of gaijin who have either heard about it, known someone who has ridden it, or have ridden it themselves. It's quite an established bit of Tokyo lore. Though the article says it started in the early 90s, the event may very well come back some years before that so it's a fairly well established event. The Ohmynews article in the link is not a blog, by the way, and I would think the pictures and video show that the event does indeed exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by on 87.75.6.127 (talk • contribs) 23:28, October 25, 2006. User's only edit, and for which oddly enough for someone living in Tokyo, the IP traces back to the UK. From the Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies people, "Also, 87.75.6.127 is a pretty odd case; I'm not quite sure how someone managed to edit Wikipedia from what appears to be DVR appliance. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 17:05, 28 October 2006"
*-Oddly enough people living in Tokyo tend to travel to other places such as the UK (duh!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.102.91.65 (talk • contribs) , at 03:44, October 27, 2006. This one, at least, is from Japan. But again, user's only edit.
Right, and while in the UK, spend their time looking for articles in Wikipedia to defend. Pull the other one. --Calton | Talk 08:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • From OhmyNews: OhmyNews (hangul:오마이뉴스) is a South Korean online newspaper with the motto "Every Citizen is a Reporter"...It is the first of its kind in the world to accept, edit and publish articles from its readers, in an open source style of news reporting. About 20% of the site's content is written by the 55-person staff while the majority of articles are written by other freelance contributors who are mostly ordinary citizens. OhmyNews' citizen reporters now number 41,000...
  • And this is distinguishable from a blog or wiki HOW, exactly? --Calton | Talk 04:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • How is the article in question a blog exactly? You have yet to clarify that. You mention that blogs, etc... were not realiable sources - realiable for what exactly? - That the event exists? Are you aware that Ohmynews and Wikipedia are quite similar in nature? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.102.91.65 (talk • contribs) , at 03:44, October 27, 2006. This one, at least, is from Japan. But again, user's only edit.
  • Kindly don't insult my intelligence. In case you're actually serious, start here for the scoop on "realiable sources". --Calton | Talk 08:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I think the very fact that even those who claim to have heard about it can't really say whether it's real or not is really a good indication of the reliability of this article and it's sources. The pictures in the blog (or whatever) linked are interesting, but prove nothing except that a few people in costumes were once on a platform at Shinjuku Station. I've never heard of it, and neither has anyone else I know who lives in Japan. This is a trivia section gone wild, and needs to be culled. Exploding Boy 06:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • this article is true. It is happening. If you say it isn't happening, you obviously aren't much in touch with the culture here in Tokyo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.187.93.210 (talk • contribs) on 17:24, October 27, 2006. Now blocked as an open proxy.
  • Keep Why exactly is this article in debate for deletion? It is an event and a phenomenom that has been held almost every year for well over a decade. As the reporter for the original article (not Blog, mind you) linked from OhMyNews - not the wiki article - I can assure you that said event exists as I have witnessed and participated in it and later reported on it for OhMynews. Like the above UK poster who lives in Japan (why the identity of the ISP address became a minor issue is beyond me to fathom unless certain people don't beleive in travel anymore than they do in Yamanote halloween trains), I have lived in Tokyo for almost 5 years. While I didn't hear about it the moment I arrived (I arrived in mid-December), I did hear about it my first Halloween here and every year after until 2005 when I witnessed it myself. Before and after that event I spoke to a number of people to gather info on the background of the event and learned that the event had been held semi-annually for well over 10 years. I recently got an email on my Ohmynews account from someone who said they rode the Halloween Train in 1992. They had heard from participants that the tradition had started sometime ago before that - so the event could almost be close to 20 years old for all we know. For those living in Tokyo who haven't heard of this event, I suggest you get out more. Most people I know have heard of the event, participated in it, or know friends who have. In short - the Yamanote Halloween Train DOES exist and debates to contrary are ridiculous seeming to reveal more a biased prudishness to the antics of foreigners (and Japanese) on the Yamanote rather than a legit concern about the integrity of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossfire (talk • contribs) at 13:45, October 27, 2006. First edit since April. Man, all these different editors, none of whom (coincidentally no doubt) have figured out how to leave a signature!
  • And I repeat, oh brand-new person, OhMynews is distinguishable from a blog or wiki HOW, exactly? --Calton | Talk 15:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh, brand new person? What are you babbling about Calton? Keep your remarks confined to the article in question and let go of your smarmy remarks that do little to further this (and I use the term lightly) debate. As to your question, how is OhMyNews not a blog, it is a citzen journalist newspaper. People report on events and the like then submit to OhMyNews who decide to publish their article or not. There is an editorial process. It's not a print up anything under the sun. Now my question - what have you got against this wiki article exactly? The event exists and has existed for over a decade and will continue to exist. As for the Ohmynews article, I reported it by speaking to a number of people before and after witnessing and participated in it myself. What I gave was an eyewitness account accompanied with photos and videos. You have yet to present a case for deletion other than your blind refusal to accept the reality of a proven event. Crossfire
Why? Do you plan on adding links to your website to that, too? --Calton | Talk 23:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
You're getting a bit abusive there, Calton. There was no call for that remark as does nothing to further this debate. Crossfire —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.129.153.83 (talk • contribs) at 09:26, October 28, 2006. This IP's only edit. And this one, at least, is from Japan.
  • If you read some of the blog entries/forum posts that come up on a google search, there are several references to the Tokyo police officially discouraging the practice, or to police involvement in breaking up/monitoring the event. It would seem that all is necessary for more references to and validity for the event is to find the official announcement by the police, or to look up old police blotter records (do Japanese have those?) for references to the party. I would do this, but I am Japanese illiterate. ~C, gaijin in Tsukuba, Ibaraki, Japan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.248.76.241 (talk • contribs) on 06:11, October 28, 2006. Yet ANOTHER anon who hasn't figued out the signature thing. Also, what is someone living in Japan doing logging in from Bangkok?
  • Again, you'd be surprised that a number of gaijin living in Tokyo actually (gasp!) travel outside of Japan from time to time. Why this is so shocking to some people here is beyond me. Put two brain cells together and think why someone from Bangkok (just a short flight from Tokyo BTW)would know or care about this matter unless they were someone who is currently living in Japan or has lived there in the past and witness or heard about this event. Crossfire —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.129.153.83 (talk • contribs) at 09:26, October 28, 2006. This IP's only edit. And this one, at least, is from Japan.
  • Right, a vacationing gaijin in Bangkok -- this being high season for it -- cruising Wikipedia at 1 o'clock in the afternoon, just so he can leap in a defend this poor article from a fate worse than death. Putting two brain cells together gets me the word "ludicrous". --Calton | Talk 14:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Smarmy remarks aside and ISP detective work that proves nothing except that gaijin travel outside of Japn, what exactly is the issue here? Is it the existence of this event that is in question or is it the disapproval of the event that ultimately bothers certain people? Crossfire —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossfire (talk • contribs) at 09:42, October 28, 2006
  • You know, much more handwaving from you and we can put up windmills, harvest the excess power. So this AfD is attracting an unduly large percentage of gaijin who just happen to be on vacation at the time. QUITE a coincidence, there, And as for motivations, don't make up nonsense about them, because no one ever buys it. --Calton | Talk 14:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep RichardInSF here: I saw this event in real life one year when it was closed down by the police. It is now back and tolerated because no damage is done by the revellers. This is definitely a real event and part of the gaijin culture of Tokyo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.206.236.66 (talk • contribs) at 12:17, October 28, 2006, who, despite his name, seems to be logging in from the offices of a hotel in London.
  • Comment: So a group of anonymous IPs and one fairly dormant named editor (you), with few if any edits, with the same verbose style and claims of personally witnessing this, from widely separated areas despite claims of living in Japan, and ALL with the identical unwillingness/inability to leave signatures (see, you do THIS: --~~~~)? I'm NOT willing to swallow that as a coincidence. So here's a word I'd like to introduce to you: "sockpuppet".
One other note: when examining the discussion, admins who close these debates give VERY little credence to IPs, and none at all, really, to those who suddenly appear without any history on Wikipedia. Vote-stacking -- especially by anons -- doesn't work, so any more appearances by eyewitness gaijin who happen to logging in from anonymous IPs around the world are just going to drive the final nails in the coffin holding your credibility, is all. --Calton | Talk 14:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this is a non-notable event (though real in a trivially small way) that does not rise to the encyclopedic level — WP:HOLE is intended for biographies, but the principle applies here ➥the Epopt 14:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per The Epopt. This may be real, but it clearly is not important enough to have received mainstream media coverage. Lots of people have Halloween parties every year, and lots of them are even broken up and/or tolerated by the police. The fact that this one allegedly takes place on a train does not automatically make it an important subject that requires an article in an encyclopedia. — Haeleth Talk 18:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, an extended interpretation of WP:NOT. Per The Epopt and Haeleth, too - I won't bother refactoring their points, as I totally agree with them. Daniel.Bryant 01:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, This is an actual, real event. I rode it last night, accompanied, might I add, by several members of the local Police Force. It seems that the Tokyo Police know that this is real. The fellow gaijin (and Japanese) on the train (which would have numbered well into the hundreds at the peak of the ride) also obviously knew of its existence. I can't see how two self-appointed expert gaijin can shoot down this article based on their inability to discover any "verifiable" evidence online. If they were in fact in Tokyo (it seems like location has been the central part of this debate) they could have come and seen for themselves. Lushman 03:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    • You rode the Yamanote line last night, as in October 28? Not Halloween? And there were hundreds of people aboard? How exactly is that different from any other night on the Yamanote? Exploding Boy 08:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete and salt. Real isn't the issue. Notable is the issue. Would life be noticably different without this particular party? I dont't think so. It's just a party. Regards, Ben Aveling 05:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep - yes, 'Exploding Guy' it was held last night and the difference from any other night would be all the people in Halloween costume and the general party atmosphere. If your only objection to this entry is that it is unverfiable, I can tell it does exist and I was there (along with a LOT of other gaijin). Perhaps you should have popped along and seen it for yourself. I apologise if I haven't followed the correct procedure for logging this but I have never before felt the need to comment on an entry and don't have a login and also thought this way my IP shows and you can at least verify that I am in Japan. To those of you who were there, we are the Moet Sisters 124.39.69.253 08:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep I fail to see any reason for deleting this, anyway if the article is deleted but the event continues to take place every year then wont someone eventually just re-create this article? Look around, there are a lot of 'cultural' articles of WiKi that would never make it into a normal encyclopedia. I for one see these articles as a good thing, wikipedia is now a one-stop-shop for information and part of that success is because of it's huge store of 'limited interest group' articles like this one. Anyway thats my two cents... or yen.

Regards Oliver

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.