Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wren's Nest
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. John254 00:04, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Wren's Nest
I am nominating this article on a council housing estate for deletion because I can see no notability claimed or sources listed. I did a Google search and while I can verify it's existence, I still see no claim to notability. killing sparrows 04:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. All geographic places are inherently notable. Cheers, DWaterson 08:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. As above. Andy Mabbett 10:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep and cleanup. The article contains a lot of unnecessary trivia about the estate's awfulness, but scarcely mentions Wren's Nest Hill's central claim to notability: as the link says, it's a classic British geological site that was pivotal to Murchison's establishemnt of the Silurian. There's plenty of material at the Dudley Council page. Tearlach 14:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Move to Wren's Nest National Nature Reserve. Not all geographical places are inherently notable in spite of the above comments to that effect. The general consensus with WP:LOCAL is that inhabited places, ie. towns, cities, villages and other independent settlements are inherently notable, but this article does not specify Wren's Nest is any of these things - it is defined as an "area" with no sources to either corroborate or clarify this for us. The information provided by Tearlach is enough to establish notability for the nature reserve, however, and information pertaining to it should be moved to an appropriately named article, with the other non-notable information excised. Arkyan • (talk) 15:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: well, the article does refer to the Wren's Nest council housing estate, a housing estate being in itself an inhabited place. I note for example that the police describe it as a "neighbourhood" here, though reference to a map of the area would also confirm that it is a built-up settlement. Cheers, DWaterson 17:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Admittedly I am somewhat unclear on what a housing estate is. Part of the problem with WP:LOCAL is that it is largely US-centric in terms of defining things like city, town, settlement and so forth. At first blush it looks to me something like a housing development - which usually aren't notable. Is it an independent entity, seperate from a city/town/village, or is it a neighborhood of an existing settlement? That's where the line would be drawn I think, understanding that better might help refine my opinion. Arkyan • (talk) 17:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, housing estate provides a fairly reasonable definition. In this case, you are right that the Wren's Nest estate is not an independent settlement entity - it is a part of Dudley and I suppose that "neighbourhood" would be the correct term to apply, though I think I would use "suburb". But I disagree at this being the place where you draw the line for notability - I would normally consider most suburbs to be notable. I would draw the line at individual streets, but a particular suburb can very easily have its own distinct character and identity from its parent town that creates notability in its own right. Otherwise, if we draw the line at this point, we would need to start nominating many other articles for deletion en masse. In any case, I'm not sure that WP:LOCAL is the correct guideline against which to assess notability - not only is that guideline inactive, it is also about places of local interest such as "churches, historic buildings, breweries, malls, masts, neighbourhoods, parks, schools, and streets", rather than the places themselves. Cheers, DWaterson 18:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- A look at, say, Castle Vale or any of the linked pages in Council house#Examples gives plenty of precedent for the notability of UK housing developments. Such estates are a significant fixture of post-WWII UK urban history; often they have a distinctive architecture and ethos, as well as incorporating (at least nominally) some historical connection with the rural areas they were built on. Tearlach 19:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you both for the feedback. I understand that WP:LOCAL is inactive, although I was more referring to some of the somewhat recent discussion that had gone on in the talk page regarding the status of minor settlements. I have seen some other AfD's coming up as of late that is starting to further muddle the issue, so I'm contemplating bringing it back up in a broader discussion again ...
- In any case, the impression I get is that these housing estates are somewhere along the lines of a neighborhood or housing development. In terms of US cities, at least, when I think "suburb" I tend to think of an independent city that shares a common urban area with a larger city, rather than being a part of that larger city itself. In my experience on AfD's for these types of articles, neighborhoods and developments are not granted "inherent notability" but are forced to rely on the broader WP:N guidelines for establishing notability, such as some sources to verify cultural or historical significance to the region.
- I still feel that most of the established notability is for the nature reserve and not the estate, and that information should be moved out into its own article. If some soruces can be found to show the estate itself is notable, and not just for neighboring the nature reserve, then I would not be opposed to keeping it and having the article split, but without more information my recommendation would still be to put the emphasis on the notable reserve and rename accordingly. Arkyan • (talk) 19:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- A look at, say, Castle Vale or any of the linked pages in Council house#Examples gives plenty of precedent for the notability of UK housing developments. Such estates are a significant fixture of post-WWII UK urban history; often they have a distinctive architecture and ethos, as well as incorporating (at least nominally) some historical connection with the rural areas they were built on. Tearlach 19:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, housing estate provides a fairly reasonable definition. In this case, you are right that the Wren's Nest estate is not an independent settlement entity - it is a part of Dudley and I suppose that "neighbourhood" would be the correct term to apply, though I think I would use "suburb". But I disagree at this being the place where you draw the line for notability - I would normally consider most suburbs to be notable. I would draw the line at individual streets, but a particular suburb can very easily have its own distinct character and identity from its parent town that creates notability in its own right. Otherwise, if we draw the line at this point, we would need to start nominating many other articles for deletion en masse. In any case, I'm not sure that WP:LOCAL is the correct guideline against which to assess notability - not only is that guideline inactive, it is also about places of local interest such as "churches, historic buildings, breweries, malls, masts, neighbourhoods, parks, schools, and streets", rather than the places themselves. Cheers, DWaterson 18:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Admittedly I am somewhat unclear on what a housing estate is. Part of the problem with WP:LOCAL is that it is largely US-centric in terms of defining things like city, town, settlement and so forth. At first blush it looks to me something like a housing development - which usually aren't notable. Is it an independent entity, seperate from a city/town/village, or is it a neighborhood of an existing settlement? That's where the line would be drawn I think, understanding that better might help refine my opinion. Arkyan • (talk) 17:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep and rewrite to primarily focus upon the nature researve which is what mainly makes it notable. However prefer to keep current name and cover the estate as both in Dudley and not enough information for 2 articles. Davewild 17:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Rewritten to include above concerns. Hopefully the article is now better written and sourced. EliminatorJR Talk 19:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep This article needs a lot of work but the Wren's Nest area is important to industrial archeologists, naturalists, geologists, waterways enthusiats etc. Martin Cordon 21:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment from nominator. Create an article, Wren's Nest National Nature Reserve, which would contain the bulk of the current article (most all of which was added after my nomination and is notable!), and the bits on the housing estate could be added to the Dudley article. The estate section is still just about a housing project and has no apparent notability. I guess re: the above arguments on whether this place is notable, I feel that just because something exists, and has been written about, that fact alone does not necessarily make it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. Apologies to anyone who lives there, but who cares? Sure, we've got lots of server space, but we don't have the human resources to patrol, copyedit, cleanup, etc. articles about everything and everyone that is reported on in every newspaper everywhere. If approved I will create the article and move the relevent material. Please notify me of the outcome or send the article to me (userfy). Thanks --killing sparrows 00:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep This article should be kept because it is about a notable residential area. Many other similar neighbourhoods have their own articles and most of them have not even been considered for deletion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AlexWilkes (talk • contribs) 09:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
