Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/West Germany national football team

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was STRONG no consensus (there's so many "strong" inputs here I couldn't help but do it myself). AKRadecki 01:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] West Germany national football team

West Germany national football team (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

POV-fork [1] from August 2006 by Hammersfan who claims West Germany and Germany were/are different states and teams. No citations for these claims are provided, talk by others is ignored. The same user apparently had previously introduced another dubious article on a football team that had to be deleted. If his attitude prevails, e.g. all articles concerning the USA have to be splitted in periods for 13-states-USA to 50-states-USA.  Matthead discuß!     O       13:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Update for clarification: Since 1908 to present, the Germany national football team is fielded by the German association DFB, recognized by and member of FIFA. It was this team, representing the DFB based in what is since 1949 called the Federal Republic of Germany, that won the WC in 1954, 1974 and 1990, not a team by any other name even though some might have called it West Germany, and some still try to do so for reasons one can only speculate about. Communist East Germany had fielded a team of their own, but both the new states there and their DFV clubs and players joined the FR of Germany and the DFB in 1990. There was "no merger of equals", nothing new was created, the FR Germany, the DFB and the German team continued as usual, the only change in 1990 was that the area and population of FR Germany grew as the separate East Germany ceased to exist and additional players were eligible. Nobody claims that the USA were founded by a merger of "South USA" and Alaska, either. I strongly urge User:Phoenix2, User:JdeJ and User:Lepetitvagabond to learn about the historical facts and update their statements accordingly. -- Matthead discuß!     O       19:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
No offence, but your statement above is hugely ambiguous. Perhaps you might want to rewrite it and use shorter sentences? On one hand, I get the feeling there existed two teams, yet on the other, I have this understanding that they could be identical. Although what I see now here is they were never identical. After all, do you mean that the West German team and East German team played together, each replacing the other in international competitions? - le petit vagabond 22:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
It is very, very simple: Germany national football team, fielded since 1908 by the DFB, covers the whole history of Germany's national football team from 1908 to the present, including the period from 1949 to 1990. Period, end of story, no discussion needed. Due to partition after WW2 there were two other teams, Saarland national football team (1949-1956) and East Germany national football team (1949-1990), but never ever a separate West Germany national football team. Some just called the DFB team West Germany until the East team folded in 1990. The same persons should have called the 1954 WC winners Central Germany, as the Saarland was the westernmost separate part of Germany back then!).-- Matthead discuß!     O       23:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, West Germany and Germany were two different countries at one point, and I think there's enough historical information for the maintenance of both articles. -- Phoenix2 (talk, review) 17:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: This is actually inaccurate. Both Germany and West Germany were called the Federal Republic of Germany. Kingjeff 14:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. West Germany was one of the strongest and most succesful teams ever, including being World Champions three times. They were a different team from the Germany-team that came into existence when West Germany and East Germany were united, as the article makes clear. There is absolutely nothing to support deleting this article. JdeJ 17:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Keep' While I have some sympathy with the nominator's views, while not necessarily agreeing with them, this does not belong in AfD. AfD is not a place to resolve these kinds of disputes. -- Mattinbgn/ talk 21:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC) Delete Convinced by arguments provided below. -- Mattinbgn/ talk 00:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Inadvertent deletion of Mattinbgn's comment by Matthead restored. --Dhartung | Talk 21:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The dispute had been resolved as there had been consensus months ago on the talk page to merge the 1950-1990 history of the team from the separate article into the the proper one, but some individuals keep separating it. Rather than renaming the separate article "Germany national football team from 1950 to 1990", which would accurately indicate both the content and the lack of need for a separate article, I filed this AfD to keep this zombie from being resurrected over and over again.-- Matthead discuß!     O       22:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, there were three de facto states/teams, and it wouldn't make much sense for a game between two of them to link to the same page for both teams. It wouldn't make sense for Confederate Navy to be merged with United States Navy, either. Note that the analogy is incorrect as the U.S. may have had fewer than 50 states at one time but in the cases where territories were independent or under a different flag then we have articles, e.g. Republic of Texas. If the Republic of Texas had a soccer team, it wouldn't make sense to merge it with the U.S. national team article. --Dhartung | Talk 21:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but you have to vote Delete according to your own statement. Germany never played against West Germany, this was and is impossible as they were and are identical. The historical separate teams, East Germany and Saarland, have and keep their own articles of course (and only with these it adds to 3 states, but not 4). You also misunderstood the analogy. There are no two separate articles on the US national team, one before Texas joined the US, and one after. Same about the navy, there was a Confederate one, but not two different US navies before and after civil or any other war.-- Matthead discuß!     O       22:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete As East German football fan I can confirm that the DFB teams are seen as a continuity even within East Germany, only that Ossis (as well as many West Germans) see the East Germany national football team as equally representative of the "nation". All content for this article would have to be exactly identical to the appropriate history sections in the Germany-article, so there's no point in maintaining both. Mentioning that the DFB team was usually referred to as West Germany between 1950 and 1990 of is absolutely enough. Malc82 23:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Before reunification, East and West Germany were de-facto separate states, each with their own national institutions. As long as this article confines itself to the period when there were two states, it has every right to exist. If it duplicates an article on the Germany football team, then the duplicated text should be deleted from there, perhaps being replaced by a brief summary of the 1950-1990 period, referring to this article using a 'main' template. Peterkingiron 23:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment An article about the German national football team that excludes 1950-1990 would be total nonsense to any football fan. By that logic we would have to create separate articles whenever the territory of a country changes. Would anybody really suggest that when Quebec would split from Canada, all articles concerning Canada should be renamed "Canada (before 2xxx)" and a new one should take their place? The DFV didn't merge with the DFB, it simply seized to exist and it's clubs (and territory) were integrated into the DFB. Malc82 23:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
As I understand, User:Peterkingiron is advocating a separate article for the England team that won the 1966 World Cup, too. The current English team, according to his logic, is a totally different one as Hongkong now belongs to China. English fans surely will love this attitude. -- Matthead discuß!     O       00:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I sense a lot of WP:POINT from you here, using this to execute some sort of agenda that needs to be taken elsewhere. -- Phoenix2 (talk, review) 01:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
See talk page. -- Matthead discuß!     O       04:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete: The DFB was pre-West Germany, West Germany and Post West Germany. All info should be merged into the Germany national football team.Kingjeff 03:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. There should be a section in the article on the Germany national football on the West and East German national teams with references to the article on the West German and East German national teams. In the 1974 World Cup, they were both in Group 1 and played each other with East Germany winning 1-0. Capitalistroadster 05:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
'Comment: The article on the German team, which lost in 1974 to the East German team, already refers to the East German team and its article, as well as to the Saarland team that had an even shorter lifespan than the East German one. Why to you vote to keep a fourth article that deals with a part of the 99 year long history of the German team? -- Matthead discuß!     O       18:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment No offense intended, but I beg the closing admin to consider that, so far, three "Delete" votes came from football fans from German-speaking countries, while none of the "Keep" voters is from Europe and only one of them seems to have an interest in soccer. The continuity is not a POV, it is commonly accepted. Last year I didn't meet anyone who said that a German World Cup win would be the 4th for the Western parts but the first for the New Länder. Malc82 09:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Question: Since when is Canada a German speaking country? Kingjeff 14:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Answer So far of course means: at the time when I was writing this. Malc82 15:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment: It just became another piece of misinformation. The fact is that I had already put my strong delete in. Kingjeff 15:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as horrendously misinformed fork. The votes to keep are inexplicable bordering on the astonishing, given the arguments that were advanced in the nomination. Eusebeus 13:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment No distinction is made by FIFA or UEFA, no separate articles for West Germany exist at RSSSF [2] or seemingly any other Wikipedia (just checked the German, Portuguese, French and Spanish WPs). The accomplished "Enzyklopädie der europäischen Fußballvereine" (Encyclopedia of European Football Clubs; by Hardy Grüne, AGON 2000) lists West Germany in the Germany part and GDR and Saarland as separate articles, so does every other source I'm aware of. Hope that's enough. Malc82 14:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I agree with user Phoenix2. As Matthead is the nominator, we are aware of his view. Constantly semi-attacking users who oppose his nomination does not inspire greater confidence. We are fully entitled to our opinions, thank you very much.JdeJ 14:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I might not be the most polite person, but I tried to give you and others a hint as some of the statements made here deny historical facts. Insisting on these "opinions" is embarrassing to the authors and can be regarded as offensive to Germans and Germany. It would be wise to read up the basic facts and adjust at least the obvious errors in the statements, if not the vote itself. -- Matthead discuß!     O       17:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment May I also point out that the current article is completely logic. There is a Wikipedia article on the country West Germany [3], as it was commonly known. What is more, the pages on various tournaments, including those won by West Germany, link to this page. [4], [5], [6]. The team of the country known as West Germany competed under the name of West Germany, and they won the World Cup three times as West Germany. I see no reason for removing a completely valid article. JdeJ 18:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Read the intro to West Germany and you may understand the continuity of the Federal Republic of Germany from 1949 to the present which is described there with "Since this reunification, the Federal Republic of Germany (still the country's legal name) has been commonly known simply as Germany." There is a 99 year continuity of the DFB's German national football team that is since 1908 always the same from the viewpoint of FIFA and UEFA, no matter if they are "commonly known" as Germans, Krauts, Nazis, West Germans, Huns, or else. As you seem to be Swedish, you'll know that there are about 10 different articles dealing with parts of the History of Sweden, including separate ones dealing with pre-WW2 Sweden and Post-war Sweden. Yet there is only one Swedish national football team article that covers also the pre-WW2 results. According to your logic you prefer two different valid articles for separate Swedish national football teams then? -- Matthead discuß!     O       19:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I find your arguments a bit simplified - few other countries have been divided. As you will have gathered by now, I don't share your opinion and that's something you'll have to accept. End of discussion for my part. JdeJ 20:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment This is factually wrong. Please note that the country never started in any tournament as West Germany (it was only translated so because people found it easier to distinguish than FRG and GDR). The West Germany article exists mainly because the Germany article starts at 100 BCE and would be way too long otherwise. The very first sentence makes clear that West Germany was an informal name given to what was and still is the FRG. Btw, we also have separate articles for the German Empire, Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany. All of them were represented by the DFB and all of them had different territories. So far nobody has proposed scratching from the main article and create a new one for every one of their national teams. Malc82 19:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as the governing bodies of the sport consider "West Germany" and the current German team as the same entity, and with the fact the teams were / are organised by the same organistion, it's all pretty conclusive that they should be considered as one IMO. FredOrAlive 00:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and that the governing bodies of football/soccer consider this to be the same as the current German team, also explained above numerous times. The team had different names at different times, but don't require separate articles. Flyguy649talkcontribs 01:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect or merge and redirect. I suppose the decision to recommend keeping or deleting in this instance depends on whether one takes a purely political (though not necessarily POV) perspective or the perspective of the history of the sports team. A single "German" political system did not exist in the period 1908-present. There was the Deutsches Reich (1871-1933), inclusive of the Weimar Republic, the Dritte Reich (1933-1945), the DDR (1949-1990), and the BRD (1949-present). A political perspective might suggest that we need individual articles for each period. However, the fact is that the German national football team has been essentially one and the same for the entirety of this period. The establishment of a separate team for the DDR can be viewed as a split resulting from political conditions. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 06:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I have modified my initial recommendation from a simple "delete" to "delete and redirect"/"merge and redirect". As noted by Oldelpaso below, a redirect should of course exist. Whether a merge is worth doing is a different matter (it seems that most of the information in this article is duplicated almost verbatim in the other article). -- Black Falcon (Talk) 18:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. ChrisTheDude 08:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete both the West German and German national teams represented the Federal Republic of Germany and were administered by the Deutscher Fußball-Bund, and authorities such as FIFA regard the "German" side as the formal continuation of the "West German" side. Caps for players whether for West Germany or Germany are considered to be for the same team, so there should just be one article. Qwghlm 09:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect. Certainly not outright deletion, its linked from hundreds of pages. Adding references for some of this history to Germany national football team wouldn't go amiss. Oldelpaso 09:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment: the large number of articles that link to the hypothetical separate West Germany team illustrates the damage that is currently done to Wikipedia by the fork of content. A redirect will lead to the proper article where it is explained that the German team was also called West German in times when additional ones existed temporarily only due to external military and political pressure. As soon as external influence vanished, these states and teams joined (the proper) Germany. The East German team for example had became as unpopular in its own state as the ruling communist politicians there. Anyway, an awful lot of articles might still contain statements that need to be fixed. The first step to clean the mess is to merge and delete this bogus article here, and to write-protect the redirect to the proper article.-- Matthead discuß!     O       10:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
My point was that a redirect needs to remain. Also, "Merge and delete" is not a valid option for GFDL reasons. Oldelpaso 12:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • delete per nom and redirect. The DFB team represented "Deutsches Reich" from 1900 to 1945 and then the "Federal Republic of Germany" from 1949 until present day. The only change in this between 1949 and 2007 was, that since 1990 (when the former GDR joined the FRG to form the "New Länder") the DFB-team could also nominate players from the new länders. But there never existed a separate "West German Team".--BSI 10:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment: it seems to me that this issue is not about whether there was or wasn't a seperate West German football team - instead it seems to be concentrating on the question "what is Germany?" Does the Federal Republic between 1949 and 1990 qualify as a seperate country from the Federal Republic as it exists today? So I'll ask these questions:
What was the capital of the Federal Republic of Germany between 1949 and 1990?
Is the same city the capital today?
How many individual states made up the Federal Republic of Germany between 1949 and 1990?
Reply None of these is relevant for the football team article and none of it constitutes a new country. Malc82 14:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Why did the international community not use GER as the country code for the Federal Republic between 1949 and 1990? (If the answer given here is "to avoid confusion with the GDR", I counter with "why not assign "DDR" to East Germany and "GER" to West Germany, given that "ESP" is the code for Spain?)
Reply Maybe it was because both parts had Germany (GER) as part of their name and the "international community" didn't want to offend one side? Malc82 14:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There also seems to be a lot made of different eras in German history, and that there should be different articles for each. This is countered by the argument that in all those eras (German Empire, Weimar Republic, Third Reich), Germany was a single entity, with one government and one nation representing the whole German people. Between 1949 and 1990 this was not the case - there were two governments, each claiming to be the true heir to those that came before. Many people here are stating things in terms of "the Federal Republic is the one true Germany and always was". To me this seems like WP:POV, and should be discouraged when attempting to write what is merely a piece of historical fact. I am prepared to accept the consensus of this, but please don't let it be driven by factors other than this article's relevance in the wider context Hammersfan 30/05/07, 11.57 BST
Instead of asking questions like this you should look up and stick to facts. The Federal Republic exists since 1949. The DFB (in its current form) exists since 1949 (reestablished after WW2). The GDR dissolved and joined the FRG in 1990. The DFB didn't dissolve, reestablish or anything like that, it simply included east german players from then on.
And of course Berlin wasn't the capital of the FRG from 1949-1990 because part of Berlin belonged to the GDR (and it would be kind of odd to have a capital which is surround by another state). But that doesn't change anything about the Germany National Football team, since the DFB is headquartered in Frankfurt/Main.--BSI 12:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment Basically, what Hammersfan is doing is pushing his political POV, which is largely OR. If the pre-reunifaction FRG should be treated as a separate entity is completely besides the point, because Wikipedia is not the place for original research.
The question of how much continuity there is in German history (and that of many other countries) is a very difficult and largely philosophical one, which may be the reason that every reliable source avoids it by treating national teams as ongoing entity, regardless of political change. Malc82 14:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Excuse me, but where do you conclude I have a "political agenda"? The question of continuity is not a "philosophical question", it is a historical one. It seems to me that the people voicing the strongest objections here are people with a somewhat coloured view. And I object to having what I have done here classed as "original research". Hammersfan 30/05/07, 21.25 BST
Reply So please name reliable sources stating that the DFB team of the re-unified Germany has to be treated as a separate entity. By political agenda I meant that the question put forward is political/historical and not specific to the football association or team. If the geographical articles treat West Germany as only a temporary "synonym" of the FRG, there's no need to discuss it in this context. Sorry if the phrase was a bit too offensive. Malc82 21:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment Hammersfan, would you please consider the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany is based since 1949 on the same Constitution and that the five states of the former GDR decided to accede the geographical scope of the Basic Law. There was no rise of a new state in 1990, just the one existing state became wider and the other one vanished. --Mghamburg 22:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect or merge and redirect. Nobody in Germany considers the DFB team from past days as West Germany. Not even then. -Lemmy- 16:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Delete - it is soo simple. The Germany national football team is just called national football team. But in fact never a national football team existed besides a squad selected by the DFB. The whole article tells the continuous history of the DFBs selection and not of a team under the responsibility of the government of the Federal Republic of Germany. By an accurate understanding of history the renaming of the article would be appropriate - but that is not a solution I would suggest concerning simplicity. --Mghamburg 22:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment. Exactly. There is no United Kingdom national football team or Great Britain national football team either, as football is not played by national governments, but by the football associations recognized by FIFA. The associations of England, Scotland, Wales etc. field their teams, and the DFB fields its team since 1908. The name of this DFB team can only be Germany national football team. -- Matthead discuß!     O       19:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • STRONG Keep - Rename. - Okay, you're all missing some vital points here, After WW2 when Germany was divided between Russia and it's allies into the two state occupation. This period in time, The national team was called "West Germany". You can get citation for this from history books of the period. Now my suggestion is that you keep this article to cover that period and it did produce some interesting results and history. The articles need to be tied together better, but this article is certainly more complete for the history part in that period and suits the other article well if written correct. Govvy 10:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment. If you claim that there need to be two article for two different teams, so provide citation if you can. The creator of this separate article had never provided any sources, either. Wikipedia is no place to promote Original Research or unsourced POV, that's why this article needs to disappear. Besides, if you want to Keep and rename this article - please state to what. -- Matthead discuß!     O       19:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment I say take the national bit out of the name, as it clearly wasn't that national if naming it West Germany! Next I like to point out, all the history is on UEFA.com if you look hard enough. Govvy 21:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment I know this is a long debate but you should still read all of the above. It has been pointed out before that the country has never started as West Germany. It always started as FRG, nwhich it still does. Btw, "Provide Citation" usually means that you look hard enough and present your evidence. Malc82 21:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: I think you are missing the only valid point. The DFB was pre World War 1, Weimer Republic, Nazi Germany, West Germany, Reunified Germany. Any footballing history Germany has since 1900 with the exception of East Germany with the Deutscher Fussballverband der DDR and Saarland with the Saarländischer Fußball-Bund is with the DFB. Kingjeff 13:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment That has nothing to do with naming conventions. It's all to do with how Europe recorded the footballing history of Germany pre WW2. Govvy 14:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment: It has everything to do with naming conventions. Your last comment means that every national team should have at least 2 articles. Kingjeff 17:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Try reversing your stick. Govvy 17:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Sadly, History can be written by anyway, you have books written by German's who says West Germany national team is just Germany, then you have books written by sources outside of Germany, which name the period of post WW2 to the fall of the Berlin wall. They name the team West Germany. It's all depended on who is the person and perspective, you can't have different variation citation from sources which contradict each other. You can either have one or the other, if you look at document history and decide to choose what you want. Then it's going to be a tough choice, the magazine I have right in front of my made by UEFA clearly have the team of 1990 labelled as West Germany. The DFB is the organisation that runs the Germany National team and on their website there doesn't seem to be any references of "West Germany" however if you go on UEFA site you can type in West Germany and get results, old teams sheets, stats from that period, you can have total stats for the whole period or you can consider West Germany a period with the most accomplishment. It's not about true citation to begin with, it's about which convention you wish to have citation for, UEFA's or DFB. I myself would choose UEFA over DFB because UEFA is the ruling body. Govvy 23:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment For the final time now: the team that is usually (colloquially) translated to "West Germany" always started as FRG. Of course the 1990 team isn't called just Germany, because the GDR also had a team in the tournament. Read the official UEFA statistics and you will find that their position on this matter is very clear. Before writing anything else: Read what has already been discussed here! You still fail to provide any reliable sources who handle the West German teams separately. If this isn't commonly done this whole discussion is moot. Malc82 09:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • STRONG DELETE: The name "West Germany" is only the informal one. The team is the national team of Germany, a state that is represented by the Deutsches Reich (1871-1945) and later the Federal Republic of Germany (1949-). Its association is the Deutscher Fußball-Bund, which existed between 1900 and 1945 and exists since 1949 again. The Deutscher Fußball-Verband - the football association of the GDR - was foundet in 1950/1958 and decased in 1990. The DFV and the national team of the GDR need their own articles for the time of 1949 till 1990, the DFB and the national team of the FRG don't need own articles for this time span. (Before you ask, I was born in the GDR and live in the FRG now.) --32X 10:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. As noted variously above, soccer authorities do not distinguish between a "West German" and a "German" team. That's because they are, as also explained above, the same team from the same nation, the Federal Republic of Germany, which East Germany joined in 1990. Sandstein 13:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.