Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wellesley College Senate Bus

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 03:14, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wellesley College Senate Bus

The college shuttle bus that runs between Wellesley, MIT and Harvard is not sifficiently notable to merit a wikipedia article. Interestingstuffadder 14:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC) I retract these comments and have changed my vote. Interestingstuffadder 04:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Delete unless moved back to "Fuck Truck" : renominated because of the move from "fuck truck" to "Wellesley College Senate Bus". I voted againt deletion in the last debate because the term "fuck truck", used at colleges across America, is a genuine piece of American collegiate folklore; I thought this article had potential to grow beyond its discussion of the Wellesley bus and, in so doing, become notable on this cultural basis. However, with this move, the article focuses on this one shuttle bus between a amall liberal arts college outside of Boston and larger nearby colleges...Can you imagine if wikipedia had an article for every specific college shuttle and its campus lore? Simply put, this article in its new, more specic form, simply does not deal with a notable topic. Keep: I am changing my vote for the sake of consistency. I really felt like I was doing the right thing, but I can see how my actions might be perceived as bad faith or at the very least obnoxious. I apologize. Interestingstuffadder 14:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)Interestingstuffadder 04:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as nn. --Terence Ong 15:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and don't move back to "Fuck Truck", since consensus supported "Fuck Truck" not being the primary name. Catamorphism 18:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: If it was a consensus, it was just barely one (9-5, with between 2 and 4 (depending on your standard) of the votes supporting the move providing little or no explanation or rationale for their positions)Interestingstuffadder 19:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete nn. I do know that this bus has the name (I went to Harvard & heard the phrase) but if this is worth including, it could be included on a page about Wellesley, Harvard, or MIT culture; doesn't deserve its own page. Also delete fuck truck: same article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mangojuice (talk • contribs)
• Speedy Keep. The name change is irrelevant and this nom is in bad faith. The article move followed a discussion and vote on the article talk page. Everything was above board. This nom argued extremely hard in the last AfD, which closed less than a month ago, to save the article based on its encyclopedic content [1], calling it in one of his 12 posts "a quite well written and well researched article". Speaking about the article , he wrote: "the term 'fuck truck' and the sexual connotations of this service needs to be a part of that final form". Well Fuck Truck still redirects to the article and the term is prominently mentioned in the first paragraph. However, it now seems that all this nom was interested in was having some kind of joke based on the lewd nickname for the bus. I say that while wikipedia is not for schoolyard jokes, it is for encyclopedic material and this bus was encyclopedic last month as the nom so passionately argued. That he is now changing his tune out of spite is no reason to slam the door on the bus or participate in a violation of WP:Point-- JJay 22:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I agree with most of what you're saying here, except that I thought this article was non-notable in the first place, and I still think it is -- even though I've contributed a fair proportion of its content. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Interestingstuffadder may be more interested in seeing whether he can get an article titled "Fuck Truck" into an encyclopedia than in improving the encyclopedia by adding content that's intrinsically interesting. As you say, this seems to be WP:POINT. Catamorphism 00:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

::Comment: Ahh...one more personal attack (to be expected, I guess) that ignores the fact that I have repeatedly identified a specific and reasonable notability-based rationale for the distinction I have drawn between "fuck truck" and "wellesley college senate bus"...Interestingstuffadder 00:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)Interestingstuffadder 04:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: You seem to be confusing personal attacks with conclusions drawn from available data (the content of your edits on Wikipedia). What are we supposed to think when you argue in favor of the article's encyclopedic relevance when it has one name, and backpedal when only the name (not the content) is changed to something else? Catamorphism 01:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

::::comment: it is clear that you have not actually read my comments. I have repeatedly said that "fuck truck" should be retained because I believed it would grow to include information about other shuttles. I myself intended to get to work on this project when I became less busy. I have repeatedly said that it is this widespread usage, which, as I said, I hoped would be incorporated into this article, that created notability. A Wellesley-specific name seems to preclude the addition of information relevant to other schools. Thus, based on rationale for notability, the move to "Wellesley College Senate Bus" made this article non-notable. I have repeatedly stated this good faith rationale for nominating for deletion upon the name change and you have been part of the discussions in which I have said this. So, given that you have had this rationale for my behavior in front of you the whole time and have still made these accusations against me, I feel that I am justified in accusing you of making personal attacks. Interestingstuffadder 04:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)Interestingstuffadder 04:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, schoolcruft. Friday (talk) 23:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The article seems fine, and it does look like a bad faith nom ("my way or nothing"). As it stands the article has a section on the use of the term at other colleges with a total of one example from a student web publication (as against Rolling Stone and Boston Herald for Wellesley). When there is more evidence of notability at other colleges (especially notabilty that extends beyond the students into the community) then consider moving the page back. Thatcher131 23:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The article might need some tweaking, but an article about a transportation service is certainly relevant (see Humphrey Go-Bart, Unitrans, or even London Buses route 1), particularly as this seems to have had media coverage. RXUYDC 23:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

*Allow me to defend myself: Please do not accuse me of bad faith. This is an unsubstiantiated personal attack. If you read my arguments throughout this process, you will see that I have consistently argued for inclusion on the basis that "fuck truck" is a general, non Wellesley-Harvard-MIT specific term (along, I admit, with other complementary rationales). I sincerely believe that an article about a general concept in collegiate humor (fuck truck) is notable while an article about a specific shuttle bus connecting three campuses is not. I have come to hold this view more strongly over the last couple of months, which explains my greater focus on this perspective and increased unwillingness (in my mind) to compromise. Please see my numerous good faith edits (including reverting vandalism) and stop hurling unfounded accusations at me. Thanks. Interestingstuffadder 00:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)Interestingstuffadder 04:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for using the term "bad faith" given that you are sincere in your belief that this service is non-notable. From my point of view, "Fuck Truck" as a college neologism is not interesting unless it is attached to specifically notable examples. At the present time a generic article would be 98% about Wellesley and 2% about Byrn Mawr. Wellesley's transport service attracted considerable undesirable notariety that spilled over into the public eye; Byrn Mawr's use is (so far) only documented in a student web newsletter. If there are more examples, add them to the article, in detail if you like, and when the "other use" section outgrows the rest of the article it can be moved back. Thatcher131 00:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep. Unnecessary double jeopardy. Haikupoet 03:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Public transport company with some media coverage. Reasonably good article. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. People, this is a college shuttle bus. Let's get our sense of proportion together here. And no, passing mention in a couple of magazine or newspaper articles does not make something notable. And no, "fuck truck" is not a worthwhile bit of American culture, its just a nickname for a -- how to put this -- college shuttle bus. Ye gods. Herostratus 15:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

True, but we also have articles for Greymon, MetalGreymon, and WarGreymon, and they've never been mentioned in Rolling Stone. Thatcher131 17:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. As a student at MIT with a couple friends at Wellesley, I can testify that the beloved fuck truck is a notable piece of the shared history of our two schools. Regardless, I think this article establishes a context for the discussion of social life at MIT and Wellesley. The focus of this article is partly about the aforementioned shuttle bus and partly about the (perceived) sexuality of students at the two schools. This assertion is backed by cited publications from various student groups, as well as the national magazine Rolling Stone. While it is true that I have edited this article, all I have done is provide a picture and clean up the article after it was nominated for deletion the first time. Isopropyl 04:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per nom (that's right), regardless of name. Melchoir 21:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
• keep and please rename to the most common title Yuckfoo 01:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
• Idea: It occurs to me, especially after reading Interestingstuffadder's artful arguing of both sides of the question (both sides of which I find myself agreeing with!), that the right place to list the generic term "fuck truck" might just be on Wiktionary. —Steve Summit (talk) 02:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep. Only minorly notable, but certainly no worse than Pokecruft. --Alan Au 04:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. The article should really be moved back under Fuck Truck with a redirect at Wellesley College Senate Bus (the reverse of the present situation, voted 9 for, 5 against, hardly a consensus mandate!). "Fuck Truck" is a notable folkloric name of this shuttle bus and a notable one in the context of Boston's culture. -- Mareklug ^talk 09:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Interesting...finally someone bothers to acknowledge my argument that the move was inappropriate. You are correct, a 9-5 vote, largely by experienced editors, with well argued opnions on both sides did not amount to a mandate for the move. Interestingstuffadder 20:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per above deletes and my reasons last time. As buses go, it's no Furthur. One of the most notable buses, the No. 2857 bus (see Rosa Parks) doesn't even have its own article. Will the "Fuck Truck" be in a museum someday, like those two? I doubt it. Esquizombi 16:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.