Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wayne DuBose

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the nomination was delete. Sango123 17:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wayne DuBose

Despite all of the text, there is really nothing here except that he's the pastor of a church whose former pastor was related to a President. That doesn't make him notable. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

He is a notable pastor. He was pastor of the LARGEST Southern Baptist Church in LOUISIANA for fifteen years. We have many teachers, lawyers, and professors on Wikipedia who certainly have records no more impressing that Reverend DuBose. There are only about 15 Baptist ministers on the site. Are we setting a "higher requirement" for ministers than teachers, lawyers, and professors? I removed the "awards" from high school, as that line did seem to trivialize his accomplishments.

Here is a sample of a lawyer on Wikipedia, and I just pulled this name from random:

Steven Dennis Bell (born 11 February 1953 in Akron, Ohio) is a lawyer and mediator.

[edit] Biography Bell's parents are Samuel H. Bell and Joyce (Shaw) Bell. He graduated from the University of Notre Dame in 1975 and from the University of Akron School of Law in 1979. He was admitted to the practice of law in Ohio in 1979. He served as an Assistant Director of Law for the City of Akron (1980 - 1983) and as an Assistant United States Attorney for the Northern District of Ohio (1984 - 1988). He also served as a Special Assistant Attorney General for the State of Ohio (1992). In 2002 he became the managing partner of The Simon Law Firm, LLP in Cleveland, Ohio.

How does this lawyer qualify for inclusion but not the pastor of the largest Baptist church in Louisiana? -- Billy Hathorn

Hi, Billy. Thanks for coming by. I see you're a relatively new editor; you might want to look at WP:SIG and check out some of the other recent AfD discussions for the format we use here, plus Help:Editing for formatting tips. You're right that Steven D. Bell appears not to meet the criteria under WP:BIO, and I have proposed its deletion. I don't think there's any systemic bias here, but it's an interesting question. How do you feel Wayne DuBose meets WP:BIO? William Pietri 15:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Lacks notability. -- Alias Flood 16:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, nonnotable per WP:BIO. In the event that this article is kept, it needs some serious neutral POV cleanup, as well. -- Docether 17:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's another lawyer who is listed: Albert Bates From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Albert Bates (born 1947-01-01) is an influential figure in the intentional community and ecovillage movements. A lawyer, author and teacher, he has been director of the Institute for Appropriate Technology since 1984 and of the Ecovillage Training Center at The Farm in Summertown, Tennessee since 1994.

Bates has been a resident of The Farm since 1972. A former attorney, he argued environmental and civil rights cases before the U.S. Supreme Court and drafted a number of legislative Acts during a 26-year legal career. The holder of a number of design patents, Bates invented the concentrating photovoltaic arrays and solar-powered automobile displayed at the 1982 World's Fair. He served on the steering committee of Plenty International for 18 years, focussing on relief and development work with indigenous peoples, human rights and the environment.

Bates has played a major role in the ecovillage movement as one of the start-up members of the Global Ecovillage Network (GEN), and GEN's president of the Ecovillage Network of the Americas (from 1996 to 2004). In 1994 he founded the Ecovillage Training Center, a "whole systems immersion experience of ecovillage living."[1] He has taught courses in sustainable design, natural building, permaculture and technologies of the future to students from more than 50 nations.


So what does this article on another lawyer have to offer that the article on Pastor DuBose lacks? What cleanup does the DuBose article require? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Billy Hathorn (talk • contribs) 20:21, 5 July 2006 UTC.

Hello again, Billy. I'm disappointed that you appear to have missed my previous reply. If you think another Wikipedia article doesn't meet our standards, you should follow one of the approaches for deletion. If you believe this article should be kept, you should help us see how it meets WP:BIO, or explain how you plan to make it meet WP:BIO. Note that this isn't any sort of judgement about Wayne DuBose; I'm sure he's a fine fellow. Here we just decide if an article meets the appropriate standards. If you think the standard should be changed, I'd start with the appropriate talk page. William Pietri 20:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above - see WP:INN, a salient essay about the above references to lawyers . SM247My Talk 23:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Billy, the argument "you should keep my article because there are others just as bad" is not a valid argument. Discuss the merits of the article in question, please. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Doesn't meet any of the standards established in WP:BIO. We need more articles about clergy, but there are plenty of ones with better sourcing and greater significance available to write about. Look at the various founders and officers of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions for examples of people we do need articles on - we don't even have the names of the founders, and it is probably the first American organization dedicated to sending foreign missions. It definitely antedates all American Baptist associations, as the first of those was formed to support Adoniram Judson who left the country as a ABCFM missionary and converted to being a Baptist enroute, causing him to lose his missionary support. If you want to work on Baptists, follow the links from Judson out one or two people until you find stubs. Build up Heather Mercer or Dayna Curry, both of which need work and are notable under the renown/notoriety standard. GRBerry 02:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it may have been missed that Pastor DuBose was the pastor of the largest Southern Baptist congregation in LOUISIANA for a period of some 15 years. That alone should make him worthy of coverage. The church had over 6,000 members while he was the pastor there. -- Billy Hathorn

Hi, Billy. No, I did notice that, and should have mentioned that. There are two issues I have. First, we'd need to be able to verify that from a reliable source. Second, I'm not sure that's really enough: it doesn't obviously meet WP:BIO. Per WP:IAR, that's not a deal-breaker for me, but I'm having trouble extracting some principle that we could insert into WP:BIO to make it better. Running the largest X of type Y in place Z doesn't seem particularly encyclopedic to me. Have his accomplishments been noted elsewhere? For example, Rick Warren was recognized in Time, Newsweek, and US News and World Report. William Pietri 17:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
This kind of information can go at Wikinfo, I believe, where they have different inclusion criteria. Notable pastors I know or have known and who have articles include Eric James, Robert Runcie, Richard Harries, Baron Harries of Pentregarth. How does this pastor measure up against those? Just curious. Just zis Guy you know? 08:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I contacted Summer Grove Baptist Church, Shreveport, LA, to confirm that Pastor DuBose was there and that the church had its largest membership then -- largest in the state in fact. I am awaiting a reply. Billy Hathorn 21:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)Billy HathornBilly Hathorn 21:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Billy. I'm glad to see you've gotten the signature thing sorted out. Have you read the policies and guidelines that I mentioned above on verifiability, what qualifies as a WP:reliable source and why we shouldn't do original research? Thanks, William Pietri 00:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.