Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victorian general election, 2010

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, particularly on how much information is needed to avoid being a crystal ball. There is good-faith disagreement here, and no clear overriding policy violations. — TKD::Talk 06:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Victorian general election, 2010

Victorian general election, 2010 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

WP is not a crystal ball. Far too early. This was prod'ed but prod notice removed so brought here. Bduke 02:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Are these by-elections related to the 2010 election? The reference given makes no mention of 2010 at all. BTW, I've notified the original author of this debate. Kevin 03:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they are related to the 2010 election - I've found another reference from the Herald Sun. -Malkinann 03:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
That link says nothing about the 2010 election. The by-elections now have nothing to do with the 2010 election. --Bduke 04:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Those articles should be either a post-note to 2006, or a short article in their own right eg under Victorian by-elections, 2007, or an alternative such as Albert Park and Williamstown by-elections, 2007. This should only be done if the by-elections are themselves notable, but as they replace an outgoing premier and deputy premier they're not likely to be short of WP:RS coverage. Orderinchaos 04:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
^^^Agreed. Timeshift 04:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete The by-elections replace outgoing members of the current parliament. They will have to stand for re-election in the 2010 election so the current by-elections have nothing to do with the 2010 election. This is a crystal ball article for an event which exists on a timetable only at this stage.Garrie 04:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

*Delete. It seems clear that the upcoming by-election has no connection, and it is too soon for the 2010 election article. Kevin 04:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep - The election is set on a fixed date a bit over three years away. I believe the article is worth keeping as parties will commit to policies should they win government. The article is the logical place to note these policies as part of an ongoing election campaign. It may only grow slowly during the pseudo-campaign, but people will use it as a reference point - the more often they do, the more often they will contribute to it. If we say that it is just too early to start the page, we don't do justice to the democratic process. George1966 04:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep but remove the 2007 by-elections. It's not too soon for a 2010 election as it is the next election scheduled at the end of the current fixed term. Per WP:CRYSTAL, "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place." Elections are notable and this one is (almost) certain to take place on an already known date. I don't think it violates WP:CRYSTAL as there is no undocumented speculation and no original research. The one that should be deleted is Victorian legislative election, 2010 as it is not part of the Victorian election template and contains original research. Dbromage [Talk] 05:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Keep i agree. the date is certain and the event important enough to keep. put the by-elections in after they have been complete Kringle7 07 05:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:CRYSTAL. Only thing certain is the date, and I dont see why we need an article when only the date is known. Recreate when more info is available Corpx 06:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. Exactly which part of WP:CRYSTAL do you claim it violates? The policy does in fact say "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place." Dbromage [Talk] 06:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • It is certain to take place, as is United States presidential election, 2028, but I fail to see why we'd already make an index for it Corpx 07:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment. Please read what WP:CRYSTAL actually says about future events. "Examples of appropriate topics include 2008 U.S. presidential election, and 2012 Summer Olympics. By comparison, the 2016 U.S. presidential election and 2036 Summer Olympics are not considered appropriate article topics because nothing can be said about them that is verifiable and not original research" Anyway, I've added more information already known about the 2010 election. Particularly notable is the use of mapping software for the first time to better predict the number of voters expected to attend each polling place, as a result of long queues in 2006. Thus the article meets WP:N, WP:V and WP:RS.Dbromage [Talk] 07:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Is there any such information available for this election, other than the date? Corpx 07:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Neutral While there is some material to write about, I'm not convinced the amount of material warrants this article Corpx 14:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - as above (next election). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fosnez (talk • contribs) 07:00, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:CRYSTAL - nothing is known about this election other than the date and it will be held - nothing more can be said about the election that is verifiable and not original research. There is not even any preparation for the election, unlike say the US Presidential elections there is not a long lead up. Recreating the article in 2009 - two years from now would be plenty early enough.--Golden Wattle talk 07:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. Exactly which part of WP:CRYSTAL do you claim it violates? You might care to read the revised version of the article. More is known than the date. And of course there is preparation. It's not like the Victorian Electoral Commission sits twiddling its thumbs for 4 years between elections. Dbromage [Talk] 07:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Response to comment - I have reread the article and appreciate the attempt to add additional info. However, as per Mattinbgn below I retain my opinion that the article should be deleted. Suggested recreation in two years time is not a reason to keep now. The additional information in the article is better placed in the article on the VEC. The fact that the VEC are not idle between elections (one would hope not) is not reason to have an article, rather it is a reason to add to the article on that body.--Golden Wattle talk 21:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • So exactly which part of WP:CRYSTAL do you claim it violates? Dbromage [Talk] 00:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • You are getting exceedingly boring with your repeated questions - it is not useful to keep restating the question when I feel I have already dealt with it - what part don't you understand. When I read By comparison, the 2016 U.S. presidential election and 2036 Summer Olympics are not considered appropriate article topics because nothing can be said about them that is verifiable and not original research. and only generic information is known about the item - in my view this article falls into that space. The bit in this article about how the VEC might or will respond belongs in the article about the VEC (and has now been placed there) - as has been said elsewhere it will not have been included in the article if it had been written closer to the date. We know there is an election to come, we know who will run it - this is not an encyclopaedia article at present - nothing more than the dates can be said about it. This is in my view only generic information. TThat generic information is already elsewhere in the wikipedia, including the article on the VEC and the article on State Elections in general (and was there in both cases even before this article was created.) As siad below I suggest a general article on Victorian elections might be interesting - especially considering the 2006 changes to dates--Golden Wattle talk 05:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep now that there is more than just the date. Kevin 07:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep An election is notable, whilst this election is a small period of time away, it is still notable. Twenty Years 08:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This does not violate "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball", we also have an article on e.g. the next UK general election, the crucial issue is not the time away but whether you can write an article which is more than pure speculation. PatGallacher 10:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete no decent article can be maintained this far out from the election.--cj | talk 12:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep Agree with Dbromage [Talk]. Preparation is already in progress and it is verifiable. See point 1 of WP:CRYSTAL--Pheonix15 12:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete With all due respect to the contributors, there isn't much worth keeping in the article at present. The table shows the results of the last election, the details of the numbers of electorates and voting arrangements for each house are better dealt with in the Parliament of Victoria article and to be honest the use of mapping software seems to me of limited interest and relevance (although it may be of some use in the Victorian Electoral Commission article). It would be unlikely to make it into the article on the election if there was more relevant content available. Delete for now and recreate closer to the election when a broader range of material can be sourced. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 12:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
"Not much worth keeping" is not quite the same as "nothing worth keeping". At least we know the exact date, that's more than we know about the next UK general election, which has an article. Also we should be cautious about using WP:CRYSTAL to delete an article which almost certainly will be re-created within the next couple of years. PatGallacher 14:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The WP:NOTINTERESTING argument doesn't fly. Dbromage [Talk] 00:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Agree with Mattinbgn and others' reasoning - there is absolutely nothing one could say about the next election which would not be purely speculation at this point, other than the date. Orderinchaos 13:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. Would you care to point out exactly which part of the article other than the date is purely speculation? Dbromage [Talk] 00:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • For starters:
        1. It *will* take place on that date. bduke has addressed this issue in more depth.
        2. There will be 88 electorates on that date.
        3. Technology will not change between now and 2010, and there will be no state elections between now and 2010 in other states which can trial ideas (for better or worse) that the VEC may decide to use, or not use, as a result. Orderinchaos 04:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • How is this unsourced speculation? Sources are cited. Dbromage [Talk] 05:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
          • Just because a media outlet or an individual at the VEC is doing the random speculating, does not mean that we should necessary follow. We're an encyclopaedia, not a news service. Orderinchaos 06:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Notable but it has to be cleaned up a bit, and set to wiki standard. IamMcLovin 20:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak delete. I proposed deletion, but once my objection was considered and it was clear editors wanted a chance to have some time to improve the article, it was my hope we could hold off on AfD for several weeks to give those editors a chance. The nominator had every right to start this AfD, though. Since that's where we are at, I have to agree that WP:CRYSTAL suggests an article with this level of detail isn't appropriate for the project at this point. Erechtheus 00:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The part that talks about how even events that are almost certain to occur shouldn't be written about when you can say little more than the obvious about them. We know what the first named storm in the north Atlantic will be in 2009. We have every reason to expect there would be at least one named storm in any year. We know that storm would have to have winds of a certain sustained speed in order to exist. Even given all of that, an article is not appropriate. I'd suggest what is in the article now is in line with what could be said about that named storm. Erechtheus 00:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Where does it say that events that are almost certain to occur shouldn't be written about when you can say little more than the obvious about them? It does say that anticipated events must be verifiable and scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. Elections do not fall within the predetermined list or a systematic pattern of names such as cyclones. Dbromage [Talk] 01:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Based on what you say, would it be your position that an article about the 2014 general election would also be appropriate at this time? Erechtheus 02:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. It comes down to common sense. 2014 is not the next election. However based on the examples given in WP:CRYSTAL, an article could be created for the 2014 election as soon as the 57th Parliament is elected. There are no specific criteria for what should and shouldn't be included in Category:Future elections and there is a template for future elections (the article is so tagged). Note that there is also a Category:2010 elections. Dbromage [Talk] 02:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment In that case, you and I just aren't reading WP:CRYSTAL to say the same thing. It appears as though you are suggesting that once iteration x of an event has happened, as long as the event is notable, iteration x+1 of the event is entitled to have an article. I don't believe it is supposed to be read that way. I think the examples cited were chosen because they are topics that are obviously very well covered in the press on a global basis. The Commonwealth of Virginia holds statewide elections for every seat in the General Assembly once every four years. It next happens in early November of this year. You seem to be suggesting that the moment the polls close, it would be appropriate to start an article about the 2011 elections. I don't think that would be appropriate absent an appropriate nucleus of reliable sources discussing that election. I don't see that for the Victorian general election, 2010 at the present moment. Erechtheus 02:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Each article can be dealt with on its merits if and when it is created. The introduction to WP:CRYSTAL says "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation." Which part of this article is unverifiable speculation? Indeed where does it say events "shouldn't be written about when you can say little more than the obvious about them". Dbromage [Talk] 03:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • CommentThat's the inference I draw from the way the part of CRYSTAL dealing with the predetermined list or systematic pattern of names. I would submit that this type of election article qualifies because there is a predetermined list of names for these elections. They come in four year intervals. I take it you read item 1 and item 2 in WP:CRYSTAL to be mutually exclusive. I do not. It's really all about the differing ways the two of us are interpreting that portion of the policy. Erechtheus 03:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • WP:CRYSTAL item 2 quite clearly deals with "a predetermined list or a systematic pattern of names, preassigned to future events or discoveries" and the examples given are cyclones and large numbers. Item 1 deals with scheduled or expected future events and the examples given are elections and the Olympic Games. This article clearly meets all the requirements of scheduled or expected future events. Dbromage [Talk] 03:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I submit that this article qualifies as both. It's certainly an event, but the article also has a systematic pattern of names. I could name the next 25 articles in this series. They'd be "Victorian general election 2014", "Victorian general election 2018", "Victorian general election 2022", "Victorian general election 2026", and on and on. Erechtheus 04:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I submit that you're wrong. Elections are covered in point 1. "Victorian general election, 2010" is not a preassigned name in the same way that Tropical Cyclone Alex is a preassigned name. "XXXX geneal election, YYYY" is simply an article title convention adopted by Wikiproject Australian Politics. The election and this article about it quite clearly meets all the requirements of scheduled or expected future events, is about a notable event, is verifiable, cites reliable sources and does not contain any unsourced speculation or original research. Dbromage [Talk] 05:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I nominated this because the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics#Victorian general election, 2010 suggested it. However, let us look at this in some detail. Do we really know an election will be held in 2010? In the normal course of events, yes, we do. However, what if there was a crisis and members of the government crossed the floor and defeated the government on a vote of confidence. Would that not lead to an earlier election? That election would be for the normal term, would it not? Or am I wrong about the way elections work in Victoria? Further, is there a possibility that the number of seats will alter before 2010 when boundaries are redistributed? Again, probably not, but are we certain? This article does contain speculation. My other concern is that if this is kept, we will all forget about it and we may not have enough people watching it to keep vandalism away. Everything that is in the article now is already in the Victorian Electoral Commission article, or could be. It is just too early for it. --Bduke 00:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Somebody has provided a ref for the last Saturday in November and that ref explains why - doesn't say what would happen in a crisis but I think the Governor just hauls in another leader to form a government - I don't htink they go to the polls. Fixed terms were introduced in 2006 as per Electoral systems of the Australian states and territories#Victoria so it hasn't been tested there yet. It seems to me that we need an article on Victorian elections more than we need this one at present! Or as mentioned above the VEC article could do with some work. --Golden Wattle talk 01:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. This is the best solution, as long as somebody is prepared to put in the effort. Let's create a page on Victorian elections, put in all of the important information from past elections, include the date for the 2010 election at the top, and leave a link to this discussion in the talk page. Then (as I see it) the debate here is satisfied on all counts - a 2010 election page can be re-created when there is more information available. We could redirect the 2010 page to the page for all elections. It also means that only relevant information from the past three or four elections is included in the main article - so you don't have to trawl through each election page (1999, 2002 etc) to find worthwhile information. I'm still against deletion - but if this proposal gains consensus, I'll go with it instead. George1966 01:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Articles about scheduled or expected future events only violate WP:CRYSTAL if there is unsourced speculation. Where is the unsourced speculation in this article? If the number of seats changes before 2010, these details can be updated and sources if and when that happens. This article passes WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS and has not been proven to violate WP:CRYSTAL in any way. Dbromage [Talk] 02:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I agree - but I'm trying to find some middle ground that is acceptable to all. George1966 02:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
My argument is that it can't be improved, so inherently violates the above. Also, I think any closing admin would note the number of times you have commented in this debate and questioned pretty much every delete voter. Orderinchaos 04:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
By what stretch of the imagination do you content that it can't be improved? That implies it can never be improved, which is not the meaning of WP:DP. It quite clearly can be expanded as more information becomes available, which will certainly be the case as the event will happen. WP:NOEFFORT says "an article should be assessed based on whether it has potential for expansion". Dbromage [Talk] 05:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
No stretch of the imagination required. It will sit as a stub basically in its present state for almost 3 years, and may create a precedent for other similarly meaningless articles to be created elsewhere. Orderinchaos 06:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
A hypothetical WP:NOEFFORT at some stage in the future is not a reason to delete it now. The edit histories of other election articles show a non-trivial amount of editing between the time they are created and the start of the actual campaign, for example Australian federal election, 2007 has been under more or less constant editing since October 2004 (it was created only 2 days after the 2004 election). The 2007 NSW election article had non-trivial editing for 14 months before the actual election. This is not an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, it's a "don't underestimate the Wikipedia community" argument. Dbromage [Talk] 07:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • This is correct. The election dates for the Parliament are fixed in law. Once elected, whoever holds a majority in the Legislative Assembly is invited to form a Government. If at some later stage during the term of the Parliament some members cross the floor, or there are enough by-elections to change the makeup of the LA, the Governor can invite the new majority to form a new Government. But that does not affect the term of the Parliament and the date of the general election does not change. The 57th Parliament will be dissolved by the Governor on 2 November 2010 regardless of who is in Government at the time or how many times the Government changes during the term. Dbromage [Talk] 05:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Not completely true. If a government is unable to function (i.e. is constitutionally deadlocked), then necessarily, an election would have to be called. This happens anywhere in the world. Also, the date can be altered due to major events, natural disasters and all manner of other things. Just because a piece of legislation gives a date does not change any of these factors. Orderinchaos 06:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
SAnd of course the legislation could be changed. But as things currently stand and as cited by sources, the article is factually correct and does not violate WP:CRYSTAL. Dbromage [Talk] 06:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Exactly (re legislation) - any government at any time has the option of repealing, or modifying, fixed term legislation. I have modified the article to account for the slightly uncertain nature of the predictions. Orderinchaos 06:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The edits are reasonable. In the unlikely event the Act is changed, the article can be too. Dbromage [Talk] 06:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep and do not redirect, ever. This is not crystal ball gazing. The political science lesson in this debate is interesting but not really relevant. Thin Arthur 06:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Following my earlier comment and those from others, the appropriate wording is "The Legislative Assembly has a fixed four-year term. Barring exceptional circumstances, elections are held on the last Saturday in November every four years (see Constitution Act 1975 s.38 and s.38A)". Note the "barring exceptional circumstances" which is not mentioned for NSW. The source is Research Note no. 14 2006–07 Timetable for the next Australian elections as at 8 December 2006 from the Parliamentary Library. I believe that Orderinchaos is correct that an election can be held if nobody can get the support of the house to govern, but I do not have a source for it. The phrase "barring exceptional circumstances" should be added to the article. If it is, I have no strong views. I still think it would be better to wait to have a specific article on the 2010 election and put the material elsewhere, so I am not withdrawing the nomination. --Bduke 09:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This is the next election which is almost certain to happen and there is verifiable information on the date already. Generally believe that having an article on the next election is a good idea as soon as the previous election has taken place. Davewild 18:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.