Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victoria Ganger

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. BLACKKITE 01:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Victoria Ganger

Victoria Ganger (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

None of the inline refs/sources provide evidence of notability plus not one of them meets WP:V. The only hard copy ref to Victoria Ganger is Deborah Lipp's book and the content on Ms. Ganger is almost non-existent. Here is a google book search. [1] The book does not source any of the content of the article. She is literally a footnote on Page 226: "14. By Victoria Granger" as a credit to a snippet of a chant on Page 168 "Fire, Water, Air and Earth Lord and Lady, Lord and Lady Lord and Lady, Death, Rebirth Lord and Lady now!14" This is the totality of her mention in the book. Also, as she is a member of ACE, that would make all her ACE tapes self-published. I don't see any evidence of her being on a record label of any sort, except for a song here and there on a compilation. I don't think she's notable. A google search [2] on "Victoria Ganger" -wikipedia -rosencomet came up with 59 hits, none significant as far as I can see. Being active in the SCA and Starwood is not notability. Plus, User:Rosencomet has added multiple mentions of himself (Jeff Rosenbaum), which are only sourced by his group's website and, as he appears to be the main author of it, this makes it COI. Also, as she works in the same group, he probably should not even be writing about her, and certainly not inserting links leading to the website where he sells her tapes/CDs. Pigman☿ 03:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete, largely fails WP:V, no independent attribution of notability. Most "sources" are non-independent, at best. --Dhartung | Talk 04:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Rename to 'Victoria Ganger and Revelry' who meet WP:BAND (even thought they are a comedy trio). The content can easily be tweaked to concentrate on the group. GtstrickyTalk or C 14:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    Comment Gtstricky, I don't want to seem contentious but could you please be more specific about which criteria they meet of WP:MUSIC? I just don't see it. Also, a Google search on "Victoria Ganger" Revelry -wikipedia -rosencomet [3] has an even poorer return of 18 hits. Pigman☿ 22:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. I was looking at some of the groups older concert schedule (which I can not even find now) and thought it would make WP:BAND easy. But as you stated they fall short. Changed to 'Delete. GtstrickyTalk or C 14:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep or rename. Here we go again. ACE has had hundreds of members over the years, and she and I both contribute work on a volunteer basis. She has no monetary connection to either me or ACE.
  • Foxpaw: a Social Blunder was not produced by ACE; in fact, ACE did not exist at the time. Ganger's first tape, Neandir: Lady of the Flame, was not originally produced by ACE (again, it did not exist yet), just the later re-issues. None of the Revelry CDs, nor Sympathetic Magic, are or were produced by ACE. Be Pagan Once Again! was not originally produced by ACE but by ADF, but re-issued as part of the ACE/ADF Collection. ACE had nothing to do with any of the recordings that post-date 1988, nearly twenty years ago.
  • The website links, as before, were there only to confirm the fact that she has performed and offered workshops at the events; there are two, and no links to the catalog. She has performed at over two dozen Starwoods and over a dozen WinterStars (for free, BTW), far more than any single other venue, so this is not undue weight. These events were critical in her becoming known in the Neo-Pagan community, and becoming connected to the Church of the SubGenius. However, Ganger is notable on her own, and should not be penalized in deciding her notability by Pigman's ongoing problems with me, just like the Matthew Abelson nomination for deletion.Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matthew Abelson
  • However, the lists of footnotes and references are the same (except for the book by Deborah Lipp), and that may be unnecessary. Rosencomet (talk) 17:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      • note - As the executive director of ACE, and the person who produces and sells Ms. Ganger's tapes, Rosencomet has COI on both this article and this AfD. Per Wikipedia:COI#How to avoid COI edits: "if you have a conflict of interest avoid, or exercise great caution when: Participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors." - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 02:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Rosencomet, you are wrong about the Starwood links; there is a navbar link on the left of the page directly to the ACE CyberCatalog.[4] I also note that you personally answer the phone for that catalog. Ms Ganger is not merely one of "hundreds of members over the years" of ACE; her involvement predates the first Starwood in 1981 according to the article. Cheers, Pigman☿ 18:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The page linked is not to the catalog. Most of the pages of that website, and many other websites I've visited, have links to the site's catalog on all major pages, and to other parts of the website as well. That listing says you'll "probably" be talking to this man. But not necessarily; others answer that phone, but not as often. And it says that in association with the Big List of items ACE sells that it does NOT produce, not in the section about Ms. Ganger's tapes. Ms. Ganger IS one of hundreds of members, regardless of how long ago she began to be one. Please don't misrepresent the facts. However, if you don't think a citation is needed to support that Ganger performed and offered workshops there, go ahead and delete the citation. However, please don't you or someone working with you follow up by deleting the fact as lacking a citation, or requiring a citation after deleting one. And again, I donate my work as a volunteer to ACE; I make not one penny off the sale of any item or attendence at any event.Rosencomet (talk) 19:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Sorry, but fails WP:BAND. I've gone over the article and sources, and googled, and the current title, as well as "Victoria Ganger and Revelry" and "FoxPaw" all fail WP:BAND. Having written one song that was recorded by Lisa Theriot seems to be the closest to a non-self-published recording, but I'm not sure that Lisa Theriot meets WP criteria, either (and the link to the Theriot CD is a commercial one). The article subject may be a wonderful person, and is obviously a friend of the creator of the article (User:Rosencomet), but the article is simply not encyclopedic. Perhaps in the future, if she records more than one song on an actual record label, an article can be written that meets WP criteria, but this article does not. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Google News Archive has nothing on her so there doesn't seem to be enough sources to base an article on. [5]. Capitalistroadster (talk) 04:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - no google news archive or scholar results and only a trivial mention in google books Addhoc (talk) 14:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.