Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Turkish Genocide in Peloponnese

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Speedy Delete as copyvio. --Fang Aili ^talk 13:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish Genocide in Peloponnese

• Delete: One-sided Content, Distortion of History, Fake / Faulty Knowledge, Conflict of Ethnical Interests, Shameful Propaganda Atalanti 00:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

1) If the term genocide applies on the Greek war of liberation, then it MUST be applied on any other war of liberation where the oppressors are eliminated; 2) AND it MUST be applied on all the acts of agression, murder, destruction, deportation, occupation and enslavement committed against the Greek - Byzantine - Romioi - Christian people since AD 634 by the Ottoman Turks, the consequence of which acts can be seen by comparing the map of the East before AD 634 and now. The alleged genocide against the Turko-Albanians committed during the Greek war of independence doesn't compare to this long and brutal genocide of the Greeks and those of a Greek origin, as well as of the Christian Orthodox, which is still carried on until now, 2006, when Greek churches were attacked in Palestine. The Turks have committed hundreds of genocides against the Greek people (not only in Greece) from AD 634 till now with facts about acts of conquest, massacres, deportation, enslavement etc.

• Comment Probable bad faith nomination. User Atalanti has no other edits aside from this nom and a similar edit to the talk page of the nominated article. On the other hand, the article smacks of OR and nationalist POV. Caknuck 01:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - Reply to user "Caknuck": User Atalanti is a PhD in history and Archaeology, and has no other edits for she is not driven by bad faith, but only by the good faith to prevent distortion of history and make wikipedia a better encyclopedia. She is the one who finally decided to propose this article for deletion after careful consideration (wrong citation, erroneous name ["Tsar Petro"], defamatory qualification ["foaming mouths"] => propaganda, ill-written and one-sided POV essay).
    • Comment for the anon user above. - From WP:AFD... "Unregistered or new users are welcome to contribute to the discussion, but their recommendations may be discounted, especially if they seem to be made in bad faith... Creating a user account an hour before nominating an AfD screams "bad faith". In the interest of fair debate, this needed to be mentioned. Caknuck 14:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment quite ironically, the same could apply to the user who created this! •NikoSilver• 20:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
        • If the nominator and the time he/she created an account is much of a problem, declare this voting invalid, and i, myself, will nominate the article for deletion (i am not a new user:)...)-i would had done this anyway, if i had noticed its existance earlier... Also note that all these votes of unregistered, newly registered, sockpuppets and God knows what else, are also invalid. Hectorian 20:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: The article should be deleted. It is in its total a racist nationalist hate propaganda, reproduced by the extreme turkish racist nationalist anti-hellenic organisations (Grey Wolves, and militaristic turkish government agents, opposing the international recognition of he Genocide of the Armenians and West Asia Greeks and other Christians, permitted by the Turks.) It is like as if we had reproduced as a Wikipedia independent article named "Genocide of the Aryan Germans (permitted by the Jews in the 20th century)" the whole Alfred Rosenberg's book "The Myth of the Twentieth Century", instead of the valid articles about 20th century history! There is no such terms in worldwide academic-valid International History as "genocide", "terrorist organisations" as regarding the Greek War of Independence (which is revolution against conquerors). These terms are being currently used only by turkish nationalist propagndists, not by worlwide recognized academic historians.

There is already a valid article in Wikipedia, Greek War of Independence All historic facts of the Greek War of Independence are being examined there. So there is against Wikipedia rules another article to exist for the same exactly issue, just rewriting revisionstically (and full hate nationalist propaganda) the first article.--ΚΑΛΛΙΜΑΧΟΣ 07:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep If an article is one sided, or is not written from the neutral point of view, then the correct method is to introduce other points of view (with sources) and to clean up the article. WP:AFD mentions this in the instructions for nominating. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 09:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep & Re-write should be re-written from a NPOV angle, however i cannot judge since someone has since vandalised the page -- Librarianofages 02:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Article should be deleted as POV essay. Well sourced facts can be incorporated into the main Greek War of Independence article or if that becomes too large a separate article such as Massacres during the Greek War of Independence could be created to deal with all such events during the war. Davewild 11:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. PoV, OR. yandman 12:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Davewild. It is indeed only an attempt at an article. Full of typoes, dysfunctional grammar and unencyclopaedic language. I quote: "Then why did the Greek rebellion take place?" Many double "ll"s are spelled "h", suggesting a printed text was scanned, which would also explain why some of the links are hilarious: Peter the Great is linked to the petroleum article. Of course, that does not justify the edit war and vandalism over this article, involving also some of the people here. Some admin must protect this article speedily. --Pan Gerwazy 08:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment OK, it has been semi-protected now. Most of the late damage was done by anons anyway. --Pan Gerwazy 14:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete this page. Its history is flavored with nationalistic undertones, turning upside down what social scientists have beem trying hard to do, namely, give genocides their appropriate "light" in history. A revolution and war of independence is defined as a genocide, in which case alll wars and revolutions and rebellions involving the killing of the oppressor defacto become genocides. This compromises the heuristic tool or use of the term genocide. What then is the difference between Holocaust and Armenian genocide on the one hand and wars of independence by people fighting against an external oppressor and conqueror? Thank you. User: Socprof

Comment Excuse me, but could everybody please use the standard procedure and write *Keep or *Delete (in bold letters) at the start of their text? As this page stands now, the administrator closing this discussion will have a lot of trouble distinguishing between "votes" and "comment". Thank you. --Pan Gerwazy 14:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - totally unencyclopedic; anything worth saying can be said in Greek War of Independence and/or Ottoman Greece, although I'm not sure that adding reports of Turkish and Greek atrocities from primary sources will do much for those articles. As noted by the Pan, it looks as if this was scanned, which is worrying. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I agree with Angus McLellan above about where to put anything worth saving. Section headings like "How Lord Byron was exploited" scream unfixable POV. Carlossuarez46 19:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete it! It is shameless distortion of history! I believe that with this statement will agree every educated Turkish. The article serves as a propaganda of the "darkest" part of Turkish society. - 17:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Gregykapogeorge — Possible single purpose account: Gregykapogeorge (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Delete! Malicious, distorted rewrite of an already existing wikipedia article. Contains gross inaccuracies and highly inflammatory language. Classic propaganda piece aimed at arousing hatred, and clearly does not belong in wikipedia 64.121.193.126 06:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)ptsourkas — Possible single purpose account: 64.121.193.126 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Delete. Comments will be added in the respective article's talkpage. Hectorian 13:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete asap, or... rename all battles of X to 'massacres' or 'genocides'. •NikoSilver• 15:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• KEEP! tHE TRUTH must be told! çekiç 6:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.206.24.147 (talk • contribs) 16:54, October 28, 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: 172.206.24.147 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Keep. Eventhough I am Greek, I think this article is very encyclopedic and tells the truth about the GENOCIDE of Turks. Not all of us are thinking like Greek Nationalists and hate Turkish people and Kemal :-) Costasgreky 17:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: Costasgreky (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

Αλήθειά; Η μεταφορά σελίδας που έκανες κάθε άλλο παρά το ότι είσαι Έλληνας δείχνει... Θα ήταν πολύ καλό αν μπορούσες να απαντήσεις στα ελληνικά, χωρίς υπεκφυγές και μα τεκμιριωμένη χρήση της νεοελληνικής γλώσσας που να αντανακλά τον ομιλητή της ως μητρικής γλώσσας. Hectorian 17:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment I do not know Greek, but I did see that since User: Costasgreky registered (today) he vandalized John Balfour, 3rd Baron Kinross to praise his biography of Kemal Ataturk to seventh heaven and Smyrna to redirect it to Izmir. Obviously, soemthing you'd expect a Greek user to do. Not. --Pan Gerwazy 21:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

U do not know Greek, but u got my point;-). In fact, this is what more or less i say in Greek above, with also an invite to him to say something in Greek (with the note that it is really easy for a native Greek to understand if the other is a native Greek-speaker...). But judging by acts and comments, no Greek would ever say that he is "uncultured" and "racist". In any case, i guess, his vote is invalid and his comments meaningless... Hectorian 22:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. I am very happy that Greek people can see the genocide of the Turkish people. These Greek murderers and racists tuvalets are the scum of Earth. This article is a must! Geleceğinin 17:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: Geleceğinin (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

Comment Note that User:Geleceğinin's only contribution since he created his account (today) apart from his user page and here, was ... supporting User: Costasgreky in his vandalism on John Balfour, 3rd Baron Kinross. I hope the closing admin will take good note of this. If the vote of these two users should be counted and decide the issue, I propose an enquiry on possible meatpuppetry.--Pan Gerwazy 21:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank You. Trukish people seem to be very liberal and modern people, in contrast to us who are racists killers with NO culture but some ancient ruins and old people. We can not see how cultured the Ottomans were, how deeply modern people like Giza Kemal changed history for all the young, future generations. Costasgreky 17:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: Costasgreky (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

• Delete! Per all Aristovoul0s 19:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Ditto.--Eupator 21:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Hakob 23:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Perseas 07:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as POV fork of Greek War of Independence, likely plagiarism, and a host of other criteria. But please be prepared to reintroduce some information about any Greek massacres of the muslim population into the main article, to the extent that they can be reliably sourced (from secondary sources, that is). Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep if well-sourced and neutralized. E104421 11:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete in every word of it there is at least one distortion. If I create an article claiming that the sun rises from the west, how long would it take to be deleted as complete rubbish? --Ferrara 11:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and Correct: I'm the creator of this article. First of all I'm neither a racist nor a fashist. I have friends all around the world including greeks and armenians. I just wanted to tell everybody what happened in Morea 180 years ago. This article is not written in a hatred manner. Everyone muslims of morea deserve to be remembered. My souces are all writting under the article; a long list of academical papers.

Few words to those who talk about turkish-hate: Well, after 400 years of turkish reign in greece, greeks are still christian and greek speaking. But turks of Morea were totally exterminated after 1-2 years of greek reign. Some people critise the mis-spellings. They're right. I'II correct them.

I see some comments here citing the year AD 634. That is the year prophet Muhammed passed away. In those year Islam was only in Arabian Peninsula, even not in Jerusalem or in Iran. The ignorant greek nationalists have to learn so many stuff about Islamic history.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mmorgil (talk • contribs) 13:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Read the comments here. The language u use is by far not academic, unencyclopedic, full of hate. Your spelling mistakes indicate (as mentioned above by a fellow wikipedian) that u scanned a paper. the sources u have added are like footnotes that do not work. all these are suspicious enough concerning the reasons and the validity of the sources (if they indeed say what u claim they do). Lastly, keep Greeks and Islam aside... It was not a religious war, nor a crusade! it was a war for independence against the conquerors. and, btw, have in mind that the Greeks ("nationalists" as u say) have excellent relations with the islamic states. better than any western country, and by far better than Turkey itself. Regards Hectorian 14:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hectorian. Do you mean, that you greeks are so innocent angels? Then please tell me the fate of turks of Mora and Crete. What happened to those people? Where are their graves? If you know it so much then Why dont you write an article about "Turks of Greece after 1821"

You, all greeks in Wikipedia, are so organised and protective. You all seem to be in a panic in a simple logic. If turks kill someone its "genocide", but if there are killed "normalities of a war". Blaming turks in front of the world and maybe gaining some benefits from it. Like you are doing since 180 years. Cry like a baby and maybe super powers give you a candy. Our lovely ridicilous former slaves :-))

Your claims about:"...war for independence against the conquerors" is funny. Greece lost the war in 1825. But England and Russia wrote the fate of war in Navorino. Greeks can never win a war. In its history greece always had a master power controlling it. You were our colony for 400 years then we sold you to Russia. Then England took you. Then USA and today EU. For greece its only about having a master.

I would just advice to open a history book (U know, Grey Wolves' leaflets can poison your mind:)...). Hectorian 21:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Am I detecting an inferiority complex on the part of our Turkish friend? If so, then it is wholly justifiable in my opinion, I mean the main difference between Greece and Turkey is that standards of living in Greece are significantly higher than those in Turkey (although we must give the Turks some credit - after all, I do hear they do have one of the highest standards of living in the Third World). Perhaps the military dictatorship in place there won't let the economy blossom.

On the other point you raised, I think you should know Greeks really don't hate Muslims, au contraire, they get on together perfectly, and see what happens to Greeks who don't follow that line. Maybe this is why, unlike Turkey, Greece has yet to experience Islamic terrorism.

As for Russia, it's a known fact that Greece is Russia's mouthpiece in the EU, all former communist states in the EU despise Russia now, Greece is their only traditional and actual ally in Europe. This is obviously due to them saving us from dhimmitude (Britain and especially France were more skeptical).

Finally, if you want to know the fate of the Muslims (a term which includes and is not equal to Turks) of Morea and Crete, they were repatriated to Turkey as part of the population exchanges directed under the Treaty of Lausanne. If you really want to compare the situations, see what George Horton in his book the Blight of Asia has to say:

"[o]ne of the cleverest statements circulated by the Turkish propagandists is to the effect that the massacred Christians were as bad as their executioners, that it was “50-50.”" On this issue he clarifies that "[h]ad the Greeks, after the massacres in the Pon­tus and at Smyrna, massacred all the Turks in Greece, the record would have been 50-50—almost." As an eye-witness, he also praises Greeks for their "conduct [...] toward the thousands of Turks residing in Greece, while the ferocious massacres were going on...", which according to his opinion was "one of the most inspiring and beautiful chapters in all that country’s history."

I rest my case.--Tekleni 22:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as POV fork of Greek War of Independence and likely copyvio/plagiarism.--Tekleni 22:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Is this page still here? I thought that such content was supposed to be speedy deleteed. WP is being ridiculed with such articles and AfD's full of one purpose accounts. I also see not even one legit Turkish user supporting this article (I see no objections either, despite relevant notifications I happen to know of, but that's another story and possibly understandable)... •NikoSilver• 22:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Any admin coming here is probably waiting for a few more experienced users who may be deemed neutral in a Greek-Turkish conflict area. One (yes, only one) of the Turkish keep votes seems to be from an experienced user. The closing admin may actually ignore the "votes" of Turks and Greeks (many single purpose accounts on both sides) but also of Armenians and perhaps even of a "Russian" Belgian like me. Leaves four deletes and two keeps. It does not help that the two keeps were the first votes. But one of them did say (s)he could not see the page because of vandalism. Perhaps (s)he can have a fresh look at the page, now that it is semi-protected?--Pan Gerwazy 11:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as copyvio from http://www.greekmurderers.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=6 (notice the site name). No prejudice against including verifiable information from neutral sources about the events into other articles, but this is a model example of partisan WP:POVFORK. Duja 12:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comments. Congratulations on this find. We now know who wrote this thing. But even this Internet site looks like having made a scan. I checked "Demosthehes" (one of the links that does not work), and of course it is there, just like "outside the city wahs". So, I believe this is actually taken from one of the author's books. You can find his (Sonyel's) biography here. Would the copy vio be from The Turco-Greek Conflict? --Pan Gerwazy 12:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - while it can't be said that the nominator does a good work in presenting the reasons for deletion, there is little doubt that this article is WP:POVFORK and a copyvio.--Aldux 12:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment: Copyvios are candidates for speedy deletion (WP:SPEEDY). I am applying the relative template in the article right now. •NikoSilver• 12:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.