Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/True Scotsman

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The article was significantly improved beginning on 17:37, 12 May 2008; the earlier "delete" opinions would seem to no longer apply.  Sandstein  07:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] True Scotsman

True Scotsman (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Nonsense, original research, an essay. You call it. My speedy deletion tag was removed. Corvus cornixtalk 01:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete and redirect as original research. I couldn't find any reputable sources to back this up. Most hits on a google search relate to the No true Scotsman fallacy. So, I suggest redirecting it there after deletion.--Kubigula (talk) 03:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak keep. The Times article, in particular, is a good reference. I'm not completely sold, but I think there is now enough sourcing to give the article a chance to develop.--Kubigula (talk) 04:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete as original research. JIP | Talk 04:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong delete - As OR. asenine say what? 06:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete - Plain nonsense combined with original research. Who would bother this? Alexius08 is welcome to talk about his contributions. 06:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect to No true Scotsman. JuJube (talk) 06:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per comments above. "Now the kilt was only for day-to-day wear. In battle, we donned a full-length ball gown covered in sequins. The idea was to blind your opponent with luxury." Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

OK now this is my first article so may I be forgiven for being a little over protctive? The fact that so many google hits lead to 'No True Scotsman Fallacy' was what prompted me to create this article because as a Scot, the usage I am much more familiar with is the the one I've written about. Most editors seem to be saying OR, that's fair enough, if I can't get some decent references into it, I will not object to it's deletion. Re:Nonsense; I can't see how this applies; I've read the criteria for deletion:patent nonsense, and unless the quality of my writing is WAY below what I think, this criteria is being mis-appliedJmackaerospace (talk) 11:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:N It needs reliable sources. To avoid deletion, add some in.Bridies (talk) 12:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The "No true Scotsman" fallacy has, in fact, nothing to do with "true Scotsmen". It's simply a way of redefining criteria to include and exclude what the speaker wants to. JIP | Talk 19:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment A couple of sources have been added.Bridies (talk) 18:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete, at best this merits a sentence in kilt. --Dhartung | Talk 21:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Definitely needs to be wikified in refs, tone and polished though. Sure the tone and other stuff has been silly-ish, but it's an interesting article that could be referenced better and introduces a cultural saying and another issue (of traditionally wearing a kilt). [The kilt article is nice, but reads like an historical costume store.] Why keep? Because I can think of worse and pointless articles that are still in wikipedia and fiercely defended. As a contributor who is learning to restrain his wacky scottish humour, who now knows the purpose of a sandbox, this user might be best encouraged afaik, Julia Rossi (talk) 02:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment subbed the article with links, cleanup and delisting among other wkfying things. Now adding tag requesting in-text citations if anyone wants to follow up. Does it need a "hang on" tag? A Scottish culture or military culture cat? Julia Rossi (talk) 02:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
PS added cats and "intext citations needed" tag. Within the delete box there's something about deciding to "keep" -- is this the case? Julia Rossi (talk) 03:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Commment I will create intext references as soon as I'm home from work and I teach myself how. There may be some parts that cannot be backed up by reliable sources, although as an uberGoogler I can say that there are plenty of 'weak' and context based sources out there, which are of course, not acceptable here, but I did make sure that that the phrase was out there in that context before I made the article. Anything I can't properly back up, I'll remove.Jmackaerospace (talk) 11:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC) ps. I keep forgetting to sign comments, chalk it up to excitementJmackaerospace (talk) 11:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete - whenever someone asks me if I am a true Scotsman, I ask them if they are a true pervert... By the way, the popular culture section never mentioned Carry On up the Khyber - what's with that? Scotland's moved beyond this stage in the past decade. Our culture is not just there as the butt of vulgar and thread worn crappy jokes.-- MacRusgail (talk) 18:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Can't believe I'd forgotton Khyber; although there is no mention of the term 'true scotsman' in the film. On a more serious note, do you think a section on how some object to the question is needed? I've never objected to the question if for no other reason than that it is far better than the minority that let actions speak louder than words.81.131.12.61 (talk) 19:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)and for some reason I'd logged ot when I wrote thatJmackaerospace (talk) 19:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - Although the article needs some work (particularly citations, I don't think it can be classed as nonsense and I'm keen to see what justification Corvus cornix and Alexius08 can come up with for their comments. Give it some time and see what the contributor can make of it. Gordonjcp (talk) 20:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: there seems to be misunderstanding (such as redirecting to the unrelated No True Scotsman article, and not wanting Scotland to look silly) and some snobbery about being ridiculous. I found it helpful to know the history and source of the saying which raised it above ridicule imo. If it has a basis to exist, that's fact, it's well-known, and even being the butt of ridicule is fact -- these validate it imo. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep: This page has no relation to the 'No true Scotsman' article whatsoever. I'm sure there will be enough citation out there to support what is written here, as anyone who has ever worn a kilt in one of Scotland's built-up areas is highly likey to have been posed the question 'Are you a True Scotsman?'. I would also add that, in the area of Edinburgh at least, being asked this question is not considered inherantly offensive or lewd, but intended to be a bit of fun. The article could use some work, but I for one was pleased to see a link to it when reading about the kilt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.173.218 (talk) 03:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I'm done referencing and citing and all that jazz (unless someone can point out something else that needs doing; I'm too close) from now it should stand on it's own merit.Jmackaerospace (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep Looks like a good job of providing references has been done, so I don't think the OR claim stands any more. Olaf Davis | Talk 08:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. Came across this while reviewing DYK hooks. This is a great one and the article is thorough and well-sourced. Daniel Case (talk) 13:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep looks good enough, and is an interesting topic.--Bedford 06:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.