Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Traditum Votum

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Discounting all the anon IP first-time votes to keep. WP:V is non-negotiable. Proto||type 13:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Traditum Votum

A society that is so secret as to be unverifiable... or possibly just a hallucination caused by reading too much Dan Brown. FreplySpang (talk) 20:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• I am adding to the nomination for deletion the related page: Ivo mihaylov
• Delete unverifiable hoax--Bill 20:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I've speedied Ivo mihaylov FreplySpang (talk) 00:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
    • He's recreated it, with absolute garbage. Fan1967 01:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
      • No, just ...no. Wikipedia states that I shouldn't take offence, however I'm finding it increasingly hard to do so with comments like that.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Banksy1988 (talk • contribs) .
• As unverifiable as ones autobiography. It should stand. Unless proven to be wrong ofcourse. I think I know my life well enough.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ivom (talk • contribs) .

Note. Only edit from this user, two minutes after registering. Fan1967 14:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP - The references verify that such a society does exist and that it has done for many years, the School of Oriental and African studies has done much research on it's existance and it is to be published in a book named "Secrets of Spain" in late 2006. Do NOT delete this until the author has a chance to update the wiki page.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Banksy1988 (talk • contribs) .

Note. This user has no edits that are not about Traditum Votum. Fan1967 14:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

YOU note. I only created this user to create awareness of this society, is it so common on wikipedia for someone to make up absolute rubbish that I am being accused of FABRICATING a secret society which I stand to gain NOTHING from? Banksy1988 23:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

To answer your question, it is very common on Wikipedia for someone to make up absolute rubbish. Most commonly it involves teenagers. Fan1967 00:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

• Delete conspiracycruft. Danny Lilithborne 21:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Some conspiracy sites and an unpublished book don't make the grade as Reliable Sources. - Fan1967 21:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Not a single hit on Google or on the academic archive JSTOR. Humansdorpie 21:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and Bill37212. DarthVader 22:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• KEEP all of the books listed under references include this society in their discussions. if i type my name in to google, i will not get a single hit - does that prove i dont exist? naive statement in my opinion to rely on google for the truth.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Banksy1988 (talk • contribs) .

  Comment Doesn't matter if it's true. It's not verifiable, which is required for Wikipedia. Also, the fact that the alleged translation of the Latin name is not remotely close doesn't speak well for the accuracy of the article. Fan1967 00:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Note Second vote from this user. Fan1967 14:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Unintentional second vote, I'm new to this. Banksy1988 23:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• Delete not a single google hit. —Mets501^talk 22:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, hey, when that book comes out in late 2006, as I'm sure it will, we can put the page back up. --Deville (Talk) 02:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Wouldn't bet on it. None of the external links have anything relevant, and the titles of the listed books look promising. Combine that with the mistranslated name, and I'm leaning more toward total hoax. Fan1967 02:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Looking into Wansbrough's profile at SOAS it is highly likely that his works will be published as early as next month, also i've checked out one of the sources on the references list and it appears that the author of this article isn't totally fabricating the story. There is clear links to some secret society over Seville FC and that the society is a break-away faction of the Illuminati - which is implied in the article, though not accurately.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.118.149 (talk • contribs)

• Comment. Can you be more specific? Which source is it that provides support for this story? Also, can you explain why a scholar of Islamic history who died in 2002 has a book coming out in 2006 about a Christian secret society? Fan1967 13:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Note. IP address resolves to Woodhouse College, a London high school. Fan1967 14:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant. I don't see how this is relevant, are you implying that a high schooler is somehow aiding me? Banksy1988 23:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Keep and edit it. The source John Wansbrough, The Sectarian Milieu: Content and Composition Of Islamic Salvation History checks out, though the translation of the work is under question, Traditum is to surrender, so Traditum Votum should mean Surrender to God, shouldn't it? The School of Oriental and African studies stated that the book was delayed as a result of the author's death. SOAS is also apprehensive about having a wiki page on the society, I think they don't want this being "leaked". But obviously there is no proof that this society has any links with the institution. 212.219.118.149 14:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment (1) Please do not vote multiple times. (2) I suggest you put a little more effort into your Latin classes. You're not even close. (3) How does Islamic Salvation History relate to a secret society that allegedly includes a Christian saint (Louis IX)? Fan1967 14:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment lol, you're expecting a student from a high school to have expert in latin. However I too don't know whether or not traditum actually means surrender, though I'm sure you would be able to enlighten me with your perfect latin translation abilities. Through Wansbrough's notes, the name Louis IX was stated. However, I cannot be 100% certain it is St Louis it is referring to. The time period of the 13th century led me to assume that it was St Louis of France.Banksy1988 19:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment You still haven't explained how any of this secret society (whose secret activities included founding a football team) relates to a history of Quranic studies. Can you understand why that might be a little puzzling? Fan1967 20:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment They didn't found a football team, they took control and then allocated control to the fans. Islam was the religon under which the soceity was founded in the south of Spain, the Quran was a big influence on their thinking. The Church where the engraving of the societies initials and seal still remain today, stands on an old mosque. Mushrif-ud-Din Abdullah (known more commonly as Saadi in his works) was captured during the crusades and he is said to have become a member while in captivity in Spain. In Wansbrough's last edition of his book Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation he states that part of the thoughts Saadi portrays in his writings are Quranic (i.e. of Islamic origin) and speak of his "finding of a new politcal underground" which "does the word of God through subtle means". This very writing was found within the remains of the church.Banksy1988 22:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Note that the current wiki page for Saadi verifies that he was captured during the crusades and that his writings were contreversial, how likely is it that a Muslim in his times would write about homoeroticism? Surely, he was protected by some sort of organization from certain excecution. Banksy1988 23:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

(backing up, pushing the right margin) So let's get this straight. You've got a medieval Sufi, who may have been captured by the Crusaders and is said to have been held in Spain. He wrote of an unnamed political underground but said little about it. From that, you come up with a group with a Latin name (whose meaning you don't know, but got from where?) supposedly connected to a French king and saint, as well as an Italian saint, neither of whom was remotely connected with Spain. And all of this is somehow connected to a 19-year-old Bulgarian/British schoolkid, whose article appears to have just been deleted and recreated. Fan1967 00:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The society's emblem is engraved in the mosque turned church in andalusia. The saints are all connected to the crusades. Bulgarian schoolkid? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Banksy1988 (talk • contribs) .

You forget about Ivo mihaylov already? You created his article twice. Fan1967 22:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I created it once...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Banksy1988 (talk • contribs) .

No, you created it twice, as is clear from the article's deletion log. You also created Osman Junaid, which has also been speedy deleted, a supposed descendant of Saadi, the Bulgarian's right hand man in this Spanish secret society, and, wonder of wonders, another high school kid at Woodhouse College. What a coincidence. Delete, hoax. Interestingly enough, Image:Postertrad.jpg indicates that it was created by photoshop on May 10, one day before Bansky uploaded it. So much for ancient history. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Image was cropped using Photoshop CS2, yes.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Banksy1988 (talk • contribs) .

... and Aquinas wasn't involved in the Crusades. Fan1967 23:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

...but he wad related to the french royals Banksy1988 09:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

You couldn't make this chain of links more tenuous if you tried. Fan1967 17:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

During 1269 to 1271 he was active in Paris, lecturing to the students, managing the affairs of the church and consulted by the king, Louis VIII, his kinsman, on affairs of state. <-- taken from the wiki page on Thomas Aquinas, verified further by http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm <-- a catholic encyclopedia which states that Aquinas was promoted and given much wealth after proposing the writing of a book which the church should have opposed, though under the influence of Louis IX no less, Aquinas was promoted and allowed to continue. Banksy1988 19:58, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

None of which remotely connects him to a Spanish secret society. Fan1967 20:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

No matter what I say, you won't let this page remain or believe what i say, so why dont you just delete it now instead of wasting my time. <personal attack removed -- User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)>. Banksy1988 20:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, Dan Brown wannabe. I'm SO tempted to speedy this. Garrett^Talk 02:44, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete WP:NOR & WP:V ~Kylu (u|t) 03:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.