Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Toronto-Montreal rivalry
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep (Non-admin closure) as per WP:SNOW. POV issues could be resolved by editing the article-Ravichandar 03:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Toronto-Montreal rivalry
The article consists of mainly 'primary research', if research at all and does not have notability and the neutrality is disputed. For example, just because two major cities are 'competitive', does that mean they hate each other? Cahk (talk) 20:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment Fixed formatting for you. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 20:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. —BelovedFreak 20:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Neutral The rhetoric that leads to the lack of neutrality can be cleaned up, so is not a valid deletion argument. As far as the notability goes, I think there is unquestionably a rivalry, but I am not certain how much it exists beyond the bounds of the hockey rivalry. To some extent, certainly, but I'm not sure it reaches the levels of the Battle of Alberta between Calgary and Edmonton, which has impacted the political, social and sporting spheres. I would lean towards keep and cleanup if others who are more familiar with the historical aspects of a potential rivalry between the two cities argue this article concept is with merit. Resolute 21:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep - The Toronto-Montreal rivalry played an important role in the development of Canada since its foundation. I would argue that this rival is just as big as the Battle of Alberta and probably older. This article just needs expanding (history, etc), more sources and a cleanup (neutral wording). MTLskyline (talk) 22:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Note MTLskyline was the creator of the article and thus his comment shouldn't be weighted equally as to others.--Cahk (talk) 06:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment So what if MTLskyline was the creator of the article? Just because he created the article doesn't mean that his comments should be weighted less or more than other contributors. His comments should be weighted equally. nat.utoronto 19:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment My bad. I was intended to make clear that he is the article creator. "Please disclose whether you are an article's primary author or if you otherwise have a vested interest in the article."Wikipedia:Articles for deletion and "If you do write an article on an area in which you are personally involved, be sure to write in a neutral tone and cite reliable, third-party published sources, and beware of unintentional bias." Wikipedia:Conflict of interest --Cahk (talk) 19:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment As one of those stereotypical anglo Montrealers who loathes Toronto (sorry, but it's true) I do have a hard time understanding how the Battle of Alberta could be notable, but Montreal-Toronto not. Of course, I could just be blinded by prejudice. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment As the nominator for AfD, I wasn't aware of the Battle of Alberta article before. For one thing, the 'Anti-Toronto sentiment' part is solely based on one's opinion and I fail to see how comparison of universities and the population have anything to do with it. Battle of Alberta is a TERM used by news and sports reporter (TSN, Sportnet, etc) whereas this one isn't. In addition, the BoA article is far more detailed than this article, which to me, consists of some editor's feeling and therefore, not encylopedic.--Cahk (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- The more you argue this, the less I tend to agree with you. The Montreal-Toronto rivalry has been a part of Canadian culture. You referenced Sportsnet: well, the rivalry between the Habs and Leafs has been immortalized in a bona fide Canadian classic The Hockey Sweater, which should at least count as much as remarks on a cable sports show. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Although in fairness, the protagonist in the Hockey Sweater lives in rural Quebec and not Montreal, so its hardly an ideal example, I grant you. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I am not intending to argue. I am simply saying the 'Battle of Alberta' is a term used (for which it seems encylopedic - however, I haven't looked into that article) whereas Toronto-Montreal rivalry isn't (and I am not saying there are no rivalry, I am saying the article is not anywhere near encylopedic level).--Cahk (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- You've certainly made your case. And I am not intending -- at least yet -- to oppose this nomination for deletion. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I am not intending to argue. I am simply saying the 'Battle of Alberta' is a term used (for which it seems encylopedic - however, I haven't looked into that article) whereas Toronto-Montreal rivalry isn't (and I am not saying there are no rivalry, I am saying the article is not anywhere near encylopedic level).--Cahk (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Although in fairness, the protagonist in the Hockey Sweater lives in rural Quebec and not Montreal, so its hardly an ideal example, I grant you. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- The more you argue this, the less I tend to agree with you. The Montreal-Toronto rivalry has been a part of Canadian culture. You referenced Sportsnet: well, the rivalry between the Habs and Leafs has been immortalized in a bona fide Canadian classic The Hockey Sweater, which should at least count as much as remarks on a cable sports show. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yes I created this article and have done a large portion of the work on it. I agree that the article needs to be better, but the Toronto-Montreal rivalry is just as important as the Battle of Alberta. I noticed that the nominator, Cahk, is from British Columbia so this rivalry may not mean anything to him at all. But in eastern Canada, it is a very important rivalry. So rather than outright deleting it, why not make suggestions as to how it can be improved or remove problematic areas yourself (such as the Anti-Toronto sentiment section (that I paraphrased from a CTV interview with the filmmaker of the documentary film Let's All Hate Toronto)? Another possible suggestion: Merge this article and the Battle of Alberta into an article entitled Canadian Regional Rivalries much like Australian regional rivalries. Cheers. MTLskyline (talk) 19:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I am also of the opinion that brand new pages should exist for the Battle of Ontario and the Battle of Quebec, or that discussions of these should be incorporated into a Canadian regional rivalries article. MTLskyline (talk) 19:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- In fairness, neither the BoA nor this article means anything to me, which is why I think I can look at this more objectively. This article is basically unsourced and have no objectivity which is why I nominated this article in the first place. Had I not been living in Canada and I read the Anti-Toronto sentiment section, I would say it is a unfair (if not biased) statement. I like the idea of merging and if you can come up with a more detailed proposal, I might withdraw this AfD nomination.
I also want to draw your attention to the term BoA, it's not simply descrbing the article. It is, an actual term used by the media. Battle of Ontario/Quebec, on the other hand, would not be the case. --Cahk (talk) 20:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- In fairness, neither the BoA nor this article means anything to me, which is why I think I can look at this more objectively. This article is basically unsourced and have no objectivity which is why I nominated this article in the first place. Had I not been living in Canada and I read the Anti-Toronto sentiment section, I would say it is a unfair (if not biased) statement. I like the idea of merging and if you can come up with a more detailed proposal, I might withdraw this AfD nomination.
- Well, Battle of Ontario is used, but almost exclusively within the context of the Maple Leafs-Senators rivalry. Incidentally, I would oppose merging the Battle of Alberta article into a Canadian rivalaries article. It certainly would merit prominient mention in such an article, but there is more than enough source material for a separate article. Resolute 21:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I am also of the opinion that brand new pages should exist for the Battle of Ontario and the Battle of Quebec, or that discussions of these should be incorporated into a Canadian regional rivalries article. MTLskyline (talk) 19:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment As the nominator for AfD, I wasn't aware of the Battle of Alberta article before. For one thing, the 'Anti-Toronto sentiment' part is solely based on one's opinion and I fail to see how comparison of universities and the population have anything to do with it. Battle of Alberta is a TERM used by news and sports reporter (TSN, Sportnet, etc) whereas this one isn't. In addition, the BoA article is far more detailed than this article, which to me, consists of some editor's feeling and therefore, not encylopedic.--Cahk (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. This article is based in fact but without a direct source, it's OR:synthesis of information. I would like to think that the verifiable information could be merged somewhere
but I don't know where. DoubleBlue (Talk) 17:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC) *P.S. I'm pretty certain that I've read history articles on the Toronto-Hamilton rivalry. DoubleBlue (Talk) 17:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC) - Merge to Toronto and Montreal and redirect to National Hockey League rivalries#Maple Leafs-Canadiens Rivalry, the primary use of the term. DoubleBlue (Talk) 17:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. You are suggesting of deleting the Quebec part ouright and turns this into an Ontario-based article?--Cahk (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- No. DoubleBlue (Talk) 23:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. You are suggesting of deleting the Quebec part ouright and turns this into an Ontario-based article?--Cahk (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
