Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Toronto-Centre-York (Senate division)

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This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page, if it exists; or after the end of this archived section. The result of the debate was delete all. – ABCD 30 June 2005 16:03 (UTC)

[edit] Calgary (Senate division)

and Edmonton (Senate division), Toronto-Centre-York (Senate division), Ontario (Senate division). These articles are based on an incorrect premise: other than Quebec, Canadian provinces do not have fixed Senate divisions. Senators may or may not chose to designate Senate divisions, but these designations have no practical meaning. The article "Canadian Senate divisions" has been re-written to reflect this. The creator of these incorrect articles has not participated in the discussion about re-writing this article. (If anyone can move the second two articles up into the title, please do so.) Ground Zero 19:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Delete these Senate divisions are indeed meaningless. They have no standing in law (they are not included in the Royal Proclamation when a senator is appointed, the senator is said to represent the whole province in the proclamation), they have no defined geographic boundaries and they can cease to exist and be re-created at the whim of any senator in the province. - Jord 19:59, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Comment the map on the Toronto-Centre-York (Senate division) is the work of Senator Anne Cools' office but it has no legal or practical status as being "official". - Jord 20:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Inaccurate articles. These divisions do not Constitutionally exist. DoubleBlue (Talk) 21:13, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, but some content could perhaps be moved to the pages on the individual senators. - SimonP 00:22, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete --Image:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 04:20, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm fine with the delete; my concern is that can't just kill the one article as there are others. Somebody needs to be careful to make sure that we kill any and all "Senate division" articles and that we unlink any surviving redlinks to them. Big job, kids. Bearcat 08:05, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Not really a big job. these are the only three that I identified as being problematic. The other live links from the original article were to (a) articles about the territories' electoral (H of C) districts which included references to the senators; and (b) articles about the Quebec Senate divisions, which are legitimate, as far as i know. And then there was only one in the (b) category. The person who started this ill-advsied project didn't get very far before abandoning it. As far as unlinking, I have no problem doing that. This is only my second-ever fD nomination. My first, Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Liberal landslide went through yesterday, and I dutifully cleaned up the links to that. Ground Zero 13:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete all per Ground Zero and Jord. Any non-Quebec senate divisions do not exist (are not fixed) and should therefore be deleted. Each non-Quebec province gets a certain number of Senate seats that have nothing to do with geographic location within the province. --Deathphoenix 14:25, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment I have added Ontario (Senate division) to the list. I hope no-one objects. This, too, suffers from the problems identified above. Ground Zero 14:32, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • From what I know, Senate seats are assigned by province. I'm not sure that a province suffers from the same problems as each "Senate division" within each province (though I'd like this disambig to use something different than "Senate division"). --Deathphoenix 17:34, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • Really what this becomes is a "List of Ontario Senators", and includes those "representing" Toronto, Northern Ontario, and Punkydoodles Corners. But is this needed? Do we not already have categories for present and former Senators? Do we need to break them down by province? Ground Zero 17:45, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
        • I can see how a List of Ontario Senators would be useful. When I looked at List of Canadian Senators, which is in alphabetical order, I could see how someone would like to see a list of the senators by province. Perhaps this list could be divided by province, then by surname. Such a discussion is probably irrelevant to this VfD, but I'll agree with your Ontario (Senate division). --Deathphoenix 14:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Based on comments from DeathPhoenix and Cloveious, I think the best approach to this article would be to move it to "List of Ontario senators", instead of deleting, and use it for all present and former senators who represented Ontario and senate divisions within Ontario. Ground Zero 14:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • This has now been done - thanks User:Bearcat. Ground Zero 12:09, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, these articles are correct. and list Senators from the divisions listed historically, even if Senate divisions are secondary to regional distribution. I think people have a stick up there rear end on this one and it seems to me they are whipped up into a frenzy because they dislike the senate.

Senate constituency offices do actually exist inside Senate divisions.

The Senate Consitituency Office for Calgary is

Suite 650, 1207 - 11 Ave.S.W. Calgary, Alberta T3C 0M5 Phone: 403-244-3111

Keep it because, People have a right to see a list of Senators that have represented there geographical area, and the dates they represented that area.

Senate divisions were important more historically when people had to go to Senators to get Private bills introduced in the senate and house to get a divorce before, family law was deligated to the courts, and travel and communications were not very good compared to today. I can back that up with News Paper articles from the turn of the Century.

The Ontario division is stated as a Senate division "At Large" representing areas not covered by senators covering specific areas inside the article.

And no, they are not controlled by a boundaries commission like electoral districts, and that won't change until Senate reform happens.

See James Lougheed Senate Profile from the Government of Canada Website

The government of Canada actually took the time to note Senate divisions represented and days when senate divisions changed.

Here is another Government of Canada link to a Senate Committee list The Legal and Consitituional Affairs Committee notice how they took the time to list the Senate divisions on there to?

and furthermore here is a Hansard transcript on the retirement of John Lynch-Staunton noting that he is in the Grandville Senate division [1] --Cloveious 06:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Cloveious, the point is that beyond the level of the province, a Senate division can be called anything the sitting senator wants it to be called (s/he could even call it "Hellsmouth-Sunnydale-Buffyverse", iffen s/he wanted to), but there aren't any formal boundaries and they're still constitutionally deemed to represent the whole province. Even with the divisional name "Toronto/Bloor & Yonge", Peter Stollery is not really considered the senator for just one street corner in downtown Toronto, and that divisional name will most likely never exist again after Stollery dies or retires. I fully support a list of senators grouped by province, but outside of Quebec, senate subdivisions really, truly, don't exist except as null placeholders. (It's the political equivalent of buying a coloured faceplate for your iPod — it personalizes your iPod and makes it a little more unique, but it doesn't fundamentally change the iPod into something it isn't.) And if you think we're opposed to this just because we dislike the Senate, dude, you're seriously out to lunch. Bearcat 21:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be placed on a related article talk page, if one exists; in an undeletion request, if it does not; or below this section.