Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Smith (filker)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Withdrawn - supplied with two independent references to assert notability. No further objections. --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 15:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tom Smith (filker)

Previous Vote for Deletion, 9/22/04 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shsilver (talk • contribs) 12:32, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

Tom Smith (filker) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

I am at a loss to understand how this individual satisfies biographical notability guidelines for entertainers or for musicians. He appears to be a fan who makes appearances at various fan conventions, and lacks any significant, independent coverage. The awards mentioned in the article are for filk, and represent a very narrow area of interest within fandom. Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 10:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep - did you read any of the previous arguments for retention? Tom Smith is a notable person in the field of filking and if you delete him you make the argument that the whole field of semiprofessional musicians should be deleted. Oftenbadly 13:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment Yes, I have done so. They give the impression notability had a different definition three years ago. Where's the significant, independent coverage? --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 13:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If coverage is your main concern, you should have used the Citations needed template, or perhaps the notability template rather than call for outright deletion.Shsilver 13:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Googling did not convince me there was room for such improvements. Hence, nomination. Opening up a discussion is not necessarily a bad thing, you know. --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 14:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If you're trying to open a discussion, there are better ways of doing it that calling for an article's deletion. Shsilver 14:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep His music has appeared in the film Saving Star Wars, which points towards notability. His songs are in radio rotation on the Dr. Demento Show, which points towards notability. He has toured in Canada and England, both sovereign countries, which points towards notability (see the notability criteria you mentioned above).Shsilver 13:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment An amateur film and (yet again) convention appearances. Jingles feature regularly on local radio shows, but we don't necessarily produce articles on them. --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 14:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Response An independent film, not an amateur one. There is a difference.Shsilver 14:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep. He has released several albums through Firebird Arts & Music, which is an important filk label. Furthermore, the Pegasus awards is fairly important genre-specific awards--winners of Pegasus awards would reasonably be expected to be included in an encyclopedia of filk, so we could reasonably have an article on any one of them (granted sufficient sources to write one). Although it'd be worthwhile to find appropriate sources for the statements in the article, that's a content issue. --Sopoforic 13:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment And again, I'm not hearing something which suggests he's something other than "of interest to people who are really into filk". To draw a comparison: we have an article on Tiddlywinks which includes information on championships, yet we don't produce articles on the better proponents of the game. It's independent coverage that suggests notability. --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 14:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Response Unless you think all articles related to filk should be deleted, a member of the Filk (yeah, you're about to complain that its only filk, I've heard you and think it is a lame argument) Hall of Fame should definitely be kept.Shsilver 14:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply: Then, I'm not quite sure what you are looking for. Yes, the people most interested in Tom Smith will be fans of filk, naturally. However, wikipedia is intended to contain information that would be in a specialized encyclopedia; it's one of the five pillars. I assert that Tom Smith would be covered by a specialized encyclopedia of filk. Further, I assert that his releasing several albums through Firebird Arts & Music satisfies criterion 5 here and that his receiving the pegasus awards satisfies criterion 8 (or perhaps 9) at the same page. Others have asserted that his songs are in rotation on radio and have been in a film. So, yes, this is mostly of interest to people who are interested in filk, but that's fine. Wikipedia's mission isn't to include only information that is of interest to everyone. --Sopoforic 14:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Ahem, I think you'll find Hawking's notability is not founded solely on prizes, even if the process of awarding the Hughes medal were comparable to the Pegasus awards. No, what I'm saying is that Smith isn't notable for his music (or that I'm currently not convinced that he is — frankly, given the level of commentary, I'm rather hoping someone will come up with the citation goods). --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 15:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep (as article creator). As noted above, he's on regular rotation on Dr. Demento (for example, this year alone he's appeared on 07-03, 07-06, 07-08, 07-15, 07-16, 07-17, and 07-29, which could be argued to satisfy #11. His "Return of the King, Uh-huh" was used by PRI's Sound and Spirit as an example of music inspired by Lord of the Rings (#7?). He was even featured on I can has cheezburger! The Pegasus is the major award in the filk field, satisfying #8. Let's see, multiple independent sources: Metafilter is one. He's right behind Barnes & Barnes on the Rhapsody Comic Song Artist list, and several steps _ahead_ of Mel Blanc. When Sci Fi Weekly picked MarsDust.com as their site of the week, they said that "Recent entries cover the history and influence of Fangoria magazine and the work of filk artist Tom Smith." In a recent LJ post, Tom said, "I got an e-mail the other day from a fellow in England named Geoff Felix. He informed me that he had forwarded timemachineyeah's video to "A Boy And His Frog" to Dave Goelz. Who apparently "really liked it". And who then passed it on to Steve Whitmire. Who also liked it." Heck, he's one of the few filkers who's supporting himself by his music alone.--SarekOfVulcan 14:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

BTW, Digby, since you're big on guidelines: "While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the articles that you are nominating for deletion. Do not notify bot accounts or people who have made only insignificant 'minor' edits. To find the main contributors, look in the page history or talk page of the article and/or use TDS' Article Contribution Counter. For your convenience, you may use {{subst:AFDWarningNew|Article title}} ~~~~ (for creators who are totally new users), {{subst:AFDWarning|Article title}} ~~~~ (for creators), or {{subst:Adw|Article title}} ~~~~ (for contributors or established users). You can determine the main contributors of the articles by entering the page name at Wikipedia Page History Statistics."--SarekOfVulcan 14:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I see the nomination has generated comment without my having to do so. So no harm done, really, is there? But to tackle your points: Metafilter or I can has cheezburger! are effectively group blogs with little editorial control beyond what the contributors decide to feature, so they don't count as reliable sources. And while it's nice that some people with Wikipedia articles have liked his songs, this again doesn't go as far as, say, a newspaper with a reasonable level of circulation covering him in some manner. If he is notable, surely something along those lines could be found? --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 14:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

"Well, I see the nomination has generated comment without my having to do so. So no harm done, really, is there?" The harm done is to your claim that you are concerned about upholding Wikipedia standards (after disregarding one that happened to be inconvenient). As for the points, I note that you don't address several of the media references (e.g. Dr. Demento, Sound and Spirit) that clearly have "a reasonable level of circulation". Smbrinich 15:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

No, he dismissed the arguments about Dr. Demento and Sounf and Spirit by writing: Jingles feature regularly on local radio shows, but we don't necessarily produce articles on them. Shsilver 15:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I trust you're not accusing me of acting in bad faith? As for radio play, we have that A) the former appears to be an affectation of Demento, and therefore more relevant to the article on him, and B) the latter is one outing on Canadian public radio. --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 15:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Strong keep Science fiction conventions and the filking community are two large and growing sub-genres, and Tom Smith is well known in both. His recorded music goes back to at least 1991 (the earliest tape of his in my collection) but our paths had crossed well before then. I've reviewed his CDs and played his music on Shockwave Radio Theater for many years. Baron Dave Romm 14:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Strong keep There was a review of one of his CDs on the SciFi Channel's website in 1997. Is that not notable enough? Altinos 15:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you find it for me? I've just been handed this by someone exterior to the discussion. The two together might allow me to withdraw the nomination. --Mark H Wilkinson ^{(t, c)} 15:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the article, you'll see links to two reviews of his works on SciFi.com. One in external links and one in the references section.Shsilver 15:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I've also added a reference to Smith from Brave New Words: The Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction (OUP, 2007).Shsilver 15:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Strong keep Multiple mass-circulation media outlets supporting notability already cited, any one of which is sufficient to settle the matter IMO.Smbrinich 15:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Strong keep You've got to be kidding. He's probably one of the five most notable filkers in the world. He would be included not only in an encyclopedia of filk but in one of fandom. There have been such encyclopedias before (e.g. Fancyclopedia I and II), and any such work published today would certainly have an article on Tom Smith. If he's not notable, then who's next? Leslie Fish? What this proposal really amounts to is "filk isn't a field in which anyone can be notable"; well, you can go make your own wiki on which you can implement that rule, but it isn't the rule here. Zsero 15:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Strong KeepHis music was played on my own radio show as early as 1992-1993 - WONX 1590 Filk is a growing genre of music, spreading into wider awareness as time passes. I fail to see why this entry is in question. --Alitama 15:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)Alitama

Comment I'd like to call everyone's attention to the proposed new notability guidelines for musicians, which seem to be gaining traction. A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable. The Pegasus Awards page is one, the Sci Fi Weekly review is another, the Filk Hall of Fame is a third. I'd say we're good.--SarekOfVulcan 15:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.