Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Chilton (game developer)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. — CharlotteWebb 20:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tom Chilton (game developer)

From the few diffs that I analyzed none of them seem to establish this person's notability, the two given sources seem to be of questionable reliability, also given the sourcing problems BLP issues seem to frequent this article. Vivio TestarossaTalk Who 07:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete. Having just entered a lull in an INSANE vandalism war on this article, I don't think it's particularly notable anyway; the only thing that seem to make him notable is the World of Warcraft game, and there hasn't been any coverage of him outside of the game's news (i.e, he's been in interviews about aspects of the game, but not much else.) I'll change my !vote if anyone can come up with anything from a more traditional reliable source. Celarnor Talk to me 07:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, he's the lead game designer of World of Warcraft, a game with over 10 million subscribers worldwide, and a quick Google search turns up several sources. Since this is the biography of a living person, all poorly sourced material should be removed. --Pixelface (talk) 08:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't mean to sound incredulous, but could you list a few of these sources? I'm all for keeping the article if some can be listed. Celarnor Talk to me 08:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I would consider this person notable, since World of Warcraft has over 10 million subscribers. He was one of the key designers of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade, working on the Player vs Player aspects, and that game was the best selling game of 2007 in North America and Europe and the fastest selling PC game of all time.[5] I believe this person meets WP:BIO: "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field."
  • There is an article for Tom Chilton on WowWiki, and I suppose that may be an alternate place for this. Considering the recent vandalism to this article by upset gamers and the lack of information on Chilton's background, I *am* wondering though if it's worth it to have an article. But I think semi protection will take care of most of it. --Pixelface (talk) 11:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I really think WowWiki is the place for something like this. Most of the articles are tenuous at best with their connection to him. This is mostly fan coverage and in-game material. While the World of Warcraft game itself is certainly very popular and notable, I don't think Chilton himself is. Also, regarding your citation from our biography guidelines:
Generally, a person who is "part of the enduring historical record" will have been written about, in depth, independently in multiple history books on that field, by historians. A politician who has received "significant press coverage" has been written about, in depth, independently in multiple news feature articles, by journalists. Fansites and interviews about PvP sites don't meet that criteria. Celarnor Talk to me 00:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Fails [Basic Criteria] for notability, also considering WP:FAN ... trivial coverage at best - one of the links in fact resolves as a 404 error page. Delete unless good secondary sources found. Springnuts (talk) 08:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep per Pixelface. Vandalism or poor sourcing are grounds for reverting or removing unsourced content, not deletion. Stifle (talk) 11:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
But there is no reliable source that discusses the subject in depth. Celarnor Talk to me 00:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per Springnuts & Celarnor (plus N/V/RS concerns) Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - The subject's work is known to and/or used by millions of people, he is certainly notable! The (original)sources suck and certain claims need rock-solid refs, but this is a valid and viable entry. Doc Tropics 19:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
A valid and viable entry wouldn't be glaringly absent of reliable sources. Celarnor Talk to me 00:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I've done an extensive rewrite using some of the sources I mentioned. --Pixelface (talk) 01:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, Pixelface has made significant improvements. It seems that most of the original objections no longer apply. Doc Tropics 01:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Reference number 3 doesn't even mention the subject. References 2 and 4 don't assert notability and merely say "This guy works here." If that is a notability assertion, then I'd like to see articles for the rest of the Blizzard employees listed there. References 5 and 6 are not independent, and are just "This guy will be at the convention for the company he works at." They also don't assert notability. This leaves us with 1 and 7, which are the ones we had at the start of the AfD. Not much has changed. We still don't have any reliable sources to establish notability. Celarnor Talk to me 02:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
WorldofWarcraft.com IS a reliable source. I really don't see how you can say a lead designer on the fastest selling PC game of all time is non notable. WP:BIO says "The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." and "The person's work...has won significant critical attention." Tim Chilton clearly passes WP:BIO. --Pixelface (talk) 04:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
And reference number 3 is the source for the fact that Burning Crusade is the fastest selling PC game of all time, and comes from the Burning Crusade article. I'm sure another source could be found for that claim. --Pixelface (talk) 04:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Our guidelines on reliable sources lists independence from the source as one of the criteria. As the World of Warcraft website is not independent from him (i.e, he was the developer), it is not a third-party source. A third-party source would be a book, a news site, a special on tv or radio, or something along those lines. If it is as popular as you say it is, and the person is so notable, it should be easy to find some sources independent of him (i.e, not the website of the company he works for) to help bolster his notability rather than all of these non-reliable, non-independent, and sometimes not even mentioning the subject (as is the case of #3), sources.
All you've really done here is establish the notability of the World of Warcraft game, which has already been done on the appropriate article. Celarnor Talk to me 04:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
You didn't address those two criteria from WP:BIO I mentioned. --Pixelface (talk) 05:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
If his work on the project was as notable as you say, then there would be sources to show it other than his attendance at company-sponsored conventions and a few brief interviews regarding PvP in WoW. Celarnor Talk to me 10:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep he's the lead designer for the largest game of all time, there is no question he is notable.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurowoofwoof111 (talk • contribs) 17:28, March 26, 2008
  • Delete. This person is not notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. He is only known within the World of Warcraft(WoW) community and that is only due to his attendance to company (Blizzard) sponsored conferences. There are not Wikipedia article about the lead designers of Microsoft Office or Visual Studio,are there? The work Tom Chilton has done with WoW is intellectual property of Blizzard/Vivendi, it belongs to that company, not Tom Chilton. Also, citing Blizzard's websites as sources is not adhereing to WP:NPOV. The company is not a reliable source for unbiased information regarding its development team.66.191.253.210 (talk) 07:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Can you suggest a more accurate source for who developed Blizzard's games than Blizzard, or perhaps the game itself? --Pixelface (talk) 10:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
      • This isn't about WoW or Bliizard. This is about a person named Tom Chilton and whether he is noteworthy enough to have an article about. Stay on topic please.66.191.253.210 (talk) 04:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
      • I don't believe that his code contributions make him notable. While it is certainly verifiable that he was one of the developers of WoW, that in and of itself doesn't make him notable. He fails the basic criteria for notability; he hasn't received significant secondary coverage, and that's all there is to it, really. Celarnor Talk to me 06:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep: The note worthy thing about this boy is that he has successfully been lead designer and been responsible for

mass account deletions by the player community, Successfully destroyed Ultima Online (former largest MMORPG), Currently is in the process of ruining WOW and if you disagree check out the deleted accounts since 2.4 patch.( possibly most unwanted patch ever). This guy is HATED by millions of gamers and they still hire the guy.. I guess they.. eh .. I don't know why. Keep him though in history no one in this industry is more loathed and hated. . . and wiki should reflect that more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.107.109.27 (talk) 09:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete As per the previous two posters, if any idiot can have their say, I may as well have mine. Tyranny of the majority FTW. 72.189.248.245 (talk) 14:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.