Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas F. Breslin

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was nomination withdrawn after rewrite and verification provided. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 16:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas F. Breslin

NN bio. WP:ISNOT a memorial service. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 17:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

This nomination is now withdrawn. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 16:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• Del. Agree with nom. --Neigel von Teighen 17:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
• Delete unverifiable, OR (as indicated from the sources) and nn. Should be userfied or moved to a personal webpage. This is not material for an encyclopedia. Eusebeus 07:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. There are four reasons why this article must be kept.

1. Thomas F. Breslin was locally famous within the island of Cebu in the Philippines including having a street named after him there.
2. There are few written records on any subject in this era from Cebu specifically and the Philippines in general. It is unreasonable to expect that there would be many references to him given the rural nature of Cebu. Deleting this record would delete one of the few records from this region in that era that does exist.
3. Deleting this article would run directly counter to the goals of Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias, skewing the Wikipedia more towards North American subjects than it is currently with this article.
4. This article provides a significant individual story to an important historical event, the Bataan Death March. As part of adding this article, I added a category for Category:Bataan Death March prisoners and went through the "What links here" method to add the persons whose articles indicated that they were on that brutal march. I found only four other persons to add to the category. A person trying to learn about the Death March would definitely want to read about the life stories of individuals that were on the march. Thomas F. Breslin's story is a valuable addition to the historical record of the Bataan Death March.

For these four reasons, this article must be kept. Brholden 19:27, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: As it's written, there's nothing to indicate that Breslin was anything more than a soldier who died during the death march. Notice the other people that you placed in the category: a deputy director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, president of the Philippines, and an army chief of staff. Bataan Death March has great historical significance. Thomas Breslin does not. "Countering systemic bias" is a red herring argument here. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 20:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
• Response 1: The "Countering systemic bias" argument is far from a red herring. Had he lived in the United States instead of the rural, agricultural society of Cebu, his life would be far more documented than it is and would have enabled me to write an article that was twice as long, and filled with numerous external links that would have been unimaginable to mark for deletion. Had he lived in the United States, the article would have been full of compelling detail and cross-reference as to the importance of this person. How can there be a more clear-cut case of systemic bias? Brholden 23:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
  • It's a red herring because I didn't nominate this article for deletion because Breslin didn't live in the US or because I feel he's not of interest to Americans or whatnot. Verifiability is Wikipedia policy. Please note that Wikipedia is not a primary or even a secondary source, but a tertiary source. An encyclopedia does not make news (primary source), nor does it report news (secondary source), but instead reports on what others have reported. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 00:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    • See response below Brholden 01:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
• Response 2: I have spoken to people who knew this man, and he was a big guy in that society. Clearly he wasn't the Army Chief of Staff, but his engineering work there was significant. I have to ask his son, but I think he surveyed the entire island of Cebu. That alone would seem to qualify him for inclusion. Being the first surveyor of a place where 3.5 Million people live is fairly significant stuff, not to mention the Death March. (I hope to improve the article over time.) Would the first surveyor of Baltimore, Maryland qualify to be in the Wikipedia? I think so. As to your comment about Thomas being a soldier, he was not a soldier, but instead was a leading civilian that was swept up by the invasion. This article adds a valuable individual story about a large and interesting life lived in a distant land and its brutal end in a significant military event. There is no way that this article should be deleted. Brholden 23:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
  • That sounds great. Provide verifiable sources and the article stays. Remember they don't have to be online sources if there aren't any, but books or newspaper citations, or something reputable to indicate that you just didn't make him up. Heck, it doesn't even have to be in English. Also note that when I added the AfD notice, there was no mention of him having surveyed the island, so there was no way of me knowing that. You have five days before the discussion closes. If you feel you can't accomplish it within that time span, you should create it as a subpage of your user page (User:Brholden/Thomas F. Breslin) and then move it back when you're ready to go. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 00:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    • This article was prepared by a series of careful oral interviews conducted by me with two of his elderly children. I have the email thread from the fact-checking session with his daughter. I would be happy to forward you that thread. As I said, because he lived in a rural agricultural society that generated few written records about anything, there is no written record, nor will there ever be for Thomas or for many other significant people from the Philippines and other less developed societies. How else do we capture the knowledge that does exist about events and individuals in less-developed societies than by this method? Are the persons underlying oral records inherently less valuable than those that have a long written record. Aren't our records of many of our treasured mythylogical/historical figures like Achilles the result of oral records that were written down hundreds of years after the fact. Do we strike their articles away because they weren't written down contemporaneously? What I will do is add a specific description in the article as to who said what and how the information was collected. I still firmly believe that this article should be kept. Brholden 01:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    • The article at the time of your AfD notice said "survey portions of Cebu". I do remember his son (who lives in Manila) indicating that it was very extensive. I wanted to be conservative, so I just kept the original article to that. I have added the word "large" to capture this sense. Brholden 01:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    • I found some references and did a major update. I found some references that his son, Robert Breslin has. Notably, a circa 1944 obituary from the Summit Hill, PA newspaper as well as a short bio. It is not public domain since it is post 1923, but I will be happy to email a JPEG of it that I have to you. I posted several other photos from Robert's materials on the page as well as made some quotes from the obit and the bio on the page. It turns out that he had been pinned a Colonel during the Battle of the Philippines. I actually had a few details wrong in my orginal article, especially w.r.t. being bayonetted - take a look. Brholden 08:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per Brholden. Reasonably notable in the Philippines, and verifiable. Not quite sure whether the oral sources are valid (unfortunately), but an obituary from a newspaper surely must be enough. Sam Vimes 13:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • No, oral histories are not valid as a reference (because they are a primary source), but the newspaper obituary does count. The nomination is now withdrawn. Good job, Brholden. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 16:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.