Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ThereIsNoRadio (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. —Kirill Lokshin 02:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ThereIsNoRadio

Appears to be a vanity page for a radio website with an alexa ranking of 1,296,221. Bear in mind that our total number of articles is only 2,409,308, and only a fraction of them pertain to websites as, well, there's a lot more to life than that. There is no evidence of links to it from anywhere besides us and myspace. The article seems to be WP:OWNed by user:Randomgenius who seems to be the only one who knows anything about this phenomenon. Delete. — FREAK OF NURxTURE (TALK) 12:24, Jan. 19, 2006


This article has already survived an afd and proved it's notability here. Maybe you should read it. Here are some quotes from Alexa's that you should pay close attention to:

"The traffic data are based on the set of Alexa users, which may not be a representative 
sample of the global Internet population. Known biases include (but are likely not limited 
to) the following:   
The Alexa Toolbar works only with the Internet Explorer browser. Sites frequented mainly by 
users of other browsers will be undercounted. For example, the AOL/Netscape browser is not 
supported, which means that Alexa collects little data from AOL users, and our traffic to 
aol.com is likely lower than it would be for a more representative sample. 
The Alexa Toolbar works only on Windows operating systems. Although a large majority of the 
Internet population currently used Windows, traffic to any sites which are disproportionately 
visited by users of other operating systems will be undercounted."

I'm the main editor on the article? So what? There's lots of articles on wikipedia that are only edited by one or two people. Everybody that is knowledgable on a subject doesn't edit articles on wikipedia either. I don't really see much point in dignifying your afd with a vote. I will again point you in the direction of the original afd at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ThereIsNoRadio. The arrogance of the "I haven't heard of it so it must not be important" afd's is rediculous and I'm getting tired of defending articles I've worked hard on for these reasons. Randomgenius 21:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


I am a listener of this radio station and wanted to know more about it. I came here and read about it. It's not an article about a website, as Freakofnurture has pointed out. It's about an internet radio station. A station with a history, on air talent, and ties to both commercial and satellite radio. Also, I didn't find out about this station from WIKIPEDIA OR MYSPACE. I've seen this site linked on ronfez.net, wackbag.com, talkradiofans.com, silentspic.com, and I even heard Ron and Fez talk about it several times on XM 202.

(sorry if I didn't provide a proper timestamp, I am new to wikipedia and only signed up to respond to this.)

I vote we Keep it. - EddieWilliams - 1/19/2006 16:49:00

This vote is the first edit by EddieWilliams (talk · contribs). — FREAK OF NURxTURE (TALK) 03:16, Jan. 20, 2006
  • Delete nn, Im not convinced by that past No Consensus afd vote - it includes three delete votes, one anonymous keep, one keep vote by a relatively new user [1] and one keep which is really a merge vote -- Astrokey44|talk 23:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete No outside sources = no good. Ashibaka tock 01:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


I'm Badmonkey, the owner of ThereIsNoRadio, and I find it interesting that this and related wikipedia entries are considered "vanity" and "non notable". I'm not sure exactly what makes these entries "vanity" as there are much nicer looking websites than wikipedia for each of them. Getting a listing somewhere is easy as most just have simple forms and I've submitted the station on several of them.

Since there has been no evidence presented other than one person's opinion to support the vanity charge I will move on to the notability issue and present some evidence that I think supports our notability.

The station started in mid October of 2005 when RadioBBQ, the original station housing most of the DJs, closed its doors. TINR and it's DJs have been discussed many times on Ron and Fez on XM Radio and The Hideout on WTKS-FM in Orlando, Florida. Before Ron and Fez moved to XM, we were discussed many times on their show on WJFK-FM in D.C. Some of our DJs are regulars on Ron and Fez as well as Opie and Anthony, such as DJNewStyle who is well-known for his O&A parody song submissions. I worked on the air with The Hideout and in the background with Ron and Fez during their time at WJFK-FM.

We are currently linked to by Fishbone with an unpaid banner on their official website. We are the only internet radio station or other non-fishbone related advertisement they run at www.fishbone.net. We are also linked to by Ron and Fez's website www.ronfez.net, another place our banners are run without any type of reciprocal payment.

In under three months, we have become the #13 ranked talk station and #6 in reality on Live365. The above mention of the 13 people that have supposedly "listened to" our station since October is a misleading number, if not an outright distortion of the facts. That is simply how many people have ranked the station during their time listening. Since mid October, we have accumulated almost 5,000 TLH, over 100 Live365 listener presets, and over 140 registered members on our website.

We may not have a high alexa rating, but as stated above Alexa only works with internet explorer. Most of our listeners use Firefox. Most of our listeners are pretty internet savvy and do not like their privacy invaded. Read your Alexa internet and you'll see that it has a bad reputation as spyware. That alone would keep them from using the alexa toolbar.

Everybody that listens doesn't rank the station. Everybody that listens doesn't register for the website. Everybody that registers for the website does not necessarily post on the forums or enter the chatroom. Nobody is required to actually visit the site to listen to us as we broadcast through Live365 and our stream is launched from our station page at Live365.com.

Reading the original afd, it appears that the primary reason for deletion was due to TiNR being an internet radio station. You've got long lists of internet radio stations that I've never heard of while neglecting stations like Soundbreak.com, one of the biggest and most written about internet radio stations of the last 10 years. Soundbreak was a project by Mark Goodman, former MTV VJ, and is the station that inspired me to start ThereIsNoRadio, years before I was on RadioBBQ. It appears to me that there are very few, if any, "wikipedians" here qualified to judge the notability of internet radio, internet radio dj's, internet radio shows, or internet radio stations. The entries I looked at today about internet radio seemed bare and uninformative as if written by people that only had a vague idea what they were talking about. We are not a website. We are an internet radio station. If the only way to show notability on wikipedia is by getting people that use the alexa toolbar to visit our website, then chances are we will never be notable in your eyes.

If you need outside sources, then start with Thereisnoradio.com, Fishbone.net, RonFez.net, The Hideout on WTKS, wackbag.com.

We may not be XM Radio or Sirius, but I would hardly call us cruft. Hopefully you all read that and now have some idea of what we are, although reading the entry would have given you plenty of information. Although, I guess if you were going to bother reading past the nomination you might have voted keep already, or at least written something more than "non notable".

My vote may not count here as I have just registered, but I vote keep because of what we have achieved in such a short time and my personal belief that the articles are informative and fairly well written. There's nothing in them that couldn't be fixed and I see nothing in the deletion policy mentioning a low alexa rating alone as a good reason to delete an article. Maybe if I'd written the article all this information would have been in it, but then it would probably meet the definition of vanity?

Keep DiabolicalBadmonkey 03:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)Badmonkey

  • Delete Although Badmonkey raises some good points about how we assess the notabity of internet radio stations, how else can we do it? We simply can't just take your word for it.
I'll admit I don't follow the internet radio scene, but we need to be able to verify the station's notabity. If 5,000 people have listened to your show since October, link the evidence. If Ron and Fez talk about it, link an archived show to prove it. From the small amount of research (checking the outside sources you listed) I have done I have found little to support keeping this article.
  • The first one is your own website which isn't very useful for assessing notabity.
  • The second one has no links to your station that I can find, and a search on their forum brings up nothing. Ron and Fez's site has a link to RadioBBQ, which I understand was the previous incarnation of ThereIsNoRadio but there is no link to TISR and no mention of it that I can find on the main site.
  • The third at the hideout has no reference to TISR either on the links page or on the "names to know" page.
  • A quick check on the unoffical Opie and Antothy forum picks up two forum threads announcing the existance of the station[2], created by DJNewStyle, although these threads are empty, apart from inital post.
  • I also can't find evidence that you are being talked about on talkradiofans.com since the forums have since been shutdown.
If I am missing something or not looking in the right places then please help us out and give us the references we need otherwise it has to be deleted per policy. Grandwazir 06:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's the links you asked for:

  • Here is a link to a show log from Ron and Fez discussing one of the DJ's leaving RadioBBQ Ron and Fez Show Log

Randomgenius 09:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm changing my suggestion to a weak keep, because it does seem to still be some doubt over the notabity over the station. Although the article does need to be improved if it is to be kept. The links provided by Randomgenius here need to make their way into the main article.
I don't think we could just brand this as vanispamcruftisement because it does have some basis to it's claim to fame. Grandwazir 19:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as vanispamcruftisement. --King of All the Franks 03:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as per Merovingian. Plus I hate siteowners defending at length their inclusion to this encyclopedia instead of spending that time expanding their article or other articles with reliable sources. --Perfecto 22:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I didn't write the article. We are not a website. Looking at the history of the articles proves that the guy that wrote the article has been working on their expansion. I simply gave information that wasn't already in the article that I felt was relevant to the discussion. I guess it's better to be a delete sheep that just post their delete vote and disappear without ever reading or contributing to the discussion? As stated above, I own the radio station. I don't know much about wikipedia and I'm not really sure how our inclusion in an amateur internet encyclopedia helps promote the station. If our article stays, great. If it does not stay, then I just think it sucks that the time and energy other people put into it was wasted. DiabolicalBadmonkey 22:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • At this point, it looks like the argument against this article remaining is that internet radio stations aren't notable. I'd have to disagree with that. For the most part, terrestrial radio stations are allowed; of them, I have edited several articles. I don't see why internet radio stations (and show pages) with some notability wouldn't be allowed. I'm not saying all stations are notable. I also realize that internet radio is yet to become as popular in the mainstream, atleast in American culture, as terrestrial radio or satellite radio. But, I think the community should re-consider its stance on internet radio stations. --Kevin McManus 00:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.