Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Pugilist Club

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete, even discounting my Delete vote below. NawlinWiki 20:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Pugilist Club

The Pugilist Club (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

• Delete - Non-notable club, possibly a7 with a {{db-club}}. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 16:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Don't speedy it because it's under construction, but I agree it's probably not notable. Shalom ^Hello 16:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured not to speedy it. That would've been a bad move. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 16:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete unless sourced to show notability. Better to delete it sooner than to have someone put lots of time into it and have it be deleted anyway. Friday (talk) 16:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Either a hoax or hopelessly NN: "Pugalist Club" gets no Google hits, the more likely "Pugilist Club" gets only unrelated hits, nothing to do with Purdue as far as I can tell. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't DeletePlease don't remove. I am constructing this page based on creditable sources. To learn about the club in the meantime, please go to the list of collegiate secret societies and open up Purdue's Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent and read that group's talk page. There has been much interest about the group even on Greek System talk pages that expressed a wish for an article about PC on Wikipedia. This is no hoax and please be patient while it is under construction. There has even been a posting about the group on the general talk page for collegiate secret societies as well. I thank you for your concern and patience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Tiki-two (talk • contribs)

But here's the thing: we're not discussing the quality of the page, or the amount of information, we're discussing the notability of the subject. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 17:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't DeletePlease be patient. It is very relevant as secret society. Vitus Barbaro of the Barbaro family is a very, very important person. People want to know about it in relation to The Sacred order of skull and Crescent and in relation to Vitus Barbaro. Please be patient. Those that know P.C. know how important it is, and those that don't will be educated with the page. Thanks again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.111 (talk • contribs)

Closing admin please note that this is a !vote made more than once by the same user. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 12:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. University students unable to spell pugilist correctly deserve neither a club nor a WP article. Deor 18:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't DeleteGive me a break- give a chance to write in peace and then fine tune and look over any spelling errors grammer etc. Everyone is a critic. I will fix, right now, to please those without patience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.111 (talk • contribs)

Closing admin please note that this is a !vote made more than once by the same user. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 12:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

But that's not what we're saying; the club's not notable. It doesn't matter about the spelling or whatever; that's not what we're here for. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 19:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Nontability not really established. Comparison with The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent carries little weight since that organisation is much older - but its article is equally unreferenced. (The spelling I have fixed free-of-charge since there was a duplicate article on the correct spelling - sadly even at premier universities spelling no longer seems to be considered important. Anon - a) kindly have the integrity to sign on before editing and to sign your comments, b) instead of leaving "give me a break" messages, why not direct your efforts to actually providing some references.) -- RHaworth 19:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't DeleteHalf of what you said is not even true. 1) I referred you to relevant talk pages that express why this article is important. 2) Crescent is referenced- it's info coming from one primary source with all aditional info cited. 3) I already asked for those to out there to be patient. 4) When you replaced my second article with this old one, you have removed half of the valid sources that I added since. I did not ask for your help on this article, I asked for you to be patient while I'm writing it, sourcing it, and fine tuning it. Which no one seems to respect, even after I asked politely many times. Relax my friend- all will be well. I'm also not going to respond to this page anymore- it is taking away from more important writing to be done-please be reasonable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.111 (talk • contribs)

Closing admin please note that this is a !vote made more than once by the same user. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 12:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• "I did not ask for your help on this article..." You don't own articles. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 20:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. Could you please cite the author and publisher, or an ISBN, for The Golden Books of Venetian Nobility for the House of Barbaro, 65.54.98.111 (I can find no record of the book's existence), as well as the pages on which the Pugilist Club is mentioned in Champions of the Ring. Deor 20:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• The Golden Books are the official record of all nobility/royalty under the government in Venice that sources information of noble and royal families. The way I referenced it, is the way historians will write it when it is used as a source. As for the "Champions of the Ring", I'm not using that source to talk about P.C.. I am going to also talk about Sullivan and Corbett that have relevance to this club, and the material that I'm talking about for those bare-knuckle boxers comes from that source. I just have gotten to writing that part yet, but I thought that I would first secure that source at the bottom, even before I wrote the relevant portion- I'm getting to it. P.C. was a really interesting club that had a very sophisticated culture and symbolism pertaining to boxers/information contained within that book. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.111 (talk • contribs)

• Also, I may take a little break, and I might not finish the article completely today. Only after I remove the construction tag, will it be your official siginl that I'm done with it- so again, I please ask for you all to be patient. P.C. is very interesting, relevant to Purdue history, directly connected to The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent, and possibly linked to NASA, and Blue Book, and other controversial things.-Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.111 (talk • contribs)

• I also want to make clear, since the name of the club might be throwing some people off, This club isn't just a boxing club, it is a collegiate secret society/final club and has relevence to the list of collegiate secret societies. It's isn't just a sporting club, but rather a collegiate secret society that used athletics and boxing imagery as symbols for their society. This group is very significant. Don't let the name throw you as if it is were some typical university sporting club. It is a secret societ just like Skull and Bones etc. that was attached to The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent, and ultimately will lead to Crescent being shut down on campus, so a page on P.C. will fill in the gaps for SOSC as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.111 (talk • contribs)
• Comment. I'm beginning to think that this page is only the tip of a more elaborate hoax, involving, at least, the articles The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent and Barbaro family. User:Tiki-two, who created both this article and the Skull and Crescent one—and who has, along with various 65.54.xxx.xx IPs, been practically their only substantive editor—has also made many, many edits to Barbaro family, inserting, among other dubious information, material about one Vitus (or V. V. or Vitus Sebastian) Barbaro, a "very, very important person" also mentioned in these Purdue articles. A Google search for "Pugilist Club"+Purdue yields zero non-WP hits, as do searches for "Vitus Barbaro," "V. V. Barbaro," "Vitus Sebastian Barbaro," and ""Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent." If I'm wrong, I owe this guy an apology; but I think it's about time that we 86ed all this balderdash. Deor 22:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, unless reliable sources are provided. Part of a pattern of hoaxes all revolving around List of collegiate secret societies from a group of anons who feel they can slap anything they want in there without sources and then become hostile when challenged. Corvus cornix 22:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. This may well be part of a larger hoax, but even if it isn't - the page as it stands fails the notability and verifiability tests. And the other pages created by the author deserve equally close inspection. Terraxos 23:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I am Tiki-two- and no respond to this page untill I post because I am trying to respond and keep getting edit conflicts. wait till I post! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.111 (talk • contribs)

Please explain how the Pugalist Club, founded in 1991, had anything to do with Project Blue Book, which was shut down in 1969. Corvus cornix 23:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

THANKS ALOT ASSHOLE FOR JUST CREATING AN EDIT CONFLICT- DID I NOT JUST ASK TO GIVE ME THE CHANCE TO POST RIGHT ABOVE SO THERE WOULD NOT BE ONE. WAIT THIS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And please also explain why a supposed ISBN-less book about Italian royalty, even if we toss logic out the window and assume it exists, would include information about a group of school kids at an American college? You'll be citing The Hobbit and The Big Book of Low-Fat Quiche Recipes next. The more you add to it, the more it sounds like an increasingly-silly hoax, or at best a WP:NFT case. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

ARE YOU PEOPLE FUCKING RETARDED? DID I JUST ASK MORE THAN ONCE ABOVE FOR NO ONE TO RESPOND UNTILL I POST IN ORDER TO NOT HAVE AN EDIT CONFLICT FOR THE 4TH FUCKING TIME. IF YOU WANT MY FUCKING ANSWER-WILL EVERONE SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LET ME POST FIRST.

I am tiki-two and if there is any correlation between my work on the Barbaro family, and SOSC, and P.C. and what ever else I fuckin put tons of work into is because I am a historian who focuses on the barbaro family, which is ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ARISTOCRATIC FAMILIES PERIOD WITH VITUS, CALLED V.V., AS THEIR HEAD!!! If you don't know that I suggest that you pick up a history book and learn that all of life's answers don't come from google. Did I fucking make up Villa Barbaro, what about the fellow on SOSC's talk page that told me, not me to him, about the recent auction of the 1992 letter that was just as descibed on the SOSC page, in his own words. Did I not say for % million fucking time to be patient with the P.C. page as I construct it. As for all you smart asses out there,about this ISBN-LESS book about royalty that you won't find, because it is a reasl primary source, what professional historians like myself do. It workslike this, let me teach you a thing or two about being a real historian. It is called fact checking with primary sources, and it works like this. I find out information about the Barbaro family, Vitus etc. and then I actually check the real source that if came from not what some jackass writes in a book. So, I go to Venice, Italy and go to their Dept of Governmental records for nobility that continues to keep updated records of all info about Vitus and others and then I go and fact check it all FIRST HAND!!! so you go the Fenwick High School in Oak Park, IL, one of America's top prep schools and you say, excuse me Debbie Thompson, that is the person you need to talk to at Fenwick, and say did Vitus Barbaro who was called Vito Albergo as a teenager, which you would understand why if you actually read the Barbaro family page, go to your school whomis now the Grand Prince of transylvania and a Ferrari designer. And she will say 100% FUCKIN YES. Then I call Ferrari in Italy, and speak with their design head, Amedeo Felisa- which you will not find listed in Wikipedia either, and i say Seniore Felisa, since you need to know who to speak italian as I do, Did Mr' Albergo actuallt present design work for you company in the 90's when he was barely in his 20's because he is a reclusive genius, and Mr. Felisa will say "Si, Verro" Yes (100% FUCKING TRUE) Then you go to the Art Institute of Chicago and ask their Human Resource Director, is it true that Vito Albergo worked for the museum when he was only 19 years old because he is a Fucking genius, and they will say yes, that is 100% FUCKING TRUE. Now after you do this for 15 Fucking Years as I have, you are then able to write a true and accurate body of knowledge with PRIMARY SOURCES LISTED. Every true historian out there will understand that AH that info can be found at Venice's Government in THE GOLDENBOOK OF NOBILITY SPECIFICALLT FOR THE BARBARO FAMILY. it is not my fault if people are to stupid to knowwhat that is. but that is the way you cite a primary source!!!!!

Ah. Well, even if this supposed books exists, it's a primary source, and therefore not an acceptable Wikipedia reference. Corvus cornix 01:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete The individual who you claim verified your claims regarding that letter (myself) has since discovered yet another flaw in it, namely that the seller states plainly it was written to Horace Chase and not Salomon P Chase as you claim in the SOSC article. Your hoax has utterly crumbled. I had to go be casual with you in order to find out whether it was a hoax as a hoaxer can't help but pathologically reveal themself. My casual conversation with you on the SOSC discussion page worked. It ferreted you out as a hoaxer. So why don't you just come clean and explain what this is all about? Is it an ego thing, a fraternity prank, a disturbed teenager's cry for attention, an attempt at falsifying items you purchased on ebay as secret society related, hence fraudulently increasing their value, or a combination of the aforementioned?

hyper_individualist@yahoo.com--76.83.249.234 05:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete One of the references is to the Purdue Exponent of Nov. 11, 2001. The Purdue Exponent is available online from 2000 on, and there was no Nov.11, 2001 issue. Nor is there any story from 2000 on with the title specified. [1]. end of story. DGG 01:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Bullshit, you go on line and you check that there is a story pertaining to the match up between Purdue and Navy!!!!. And if you gave me the chance to finish you would have understood it';s significance. I want Barbaro family and SOSC returned immediately before i take this up with wikipedia!!!

All of the screaming and swearing don't help your cause. Neither does the edit history of this page, which doesn't show any examples of edit conflicts. Corvus cornix 01:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

For a professional historian this anon sure does say fuck a lot. Also it is becoming clear that this whole thing is: if we assume good faith this is original research involving calling up the design head at Ferrari (very hard to do), if we don't assume good faith it is a hoax. --Daniel J. Leivick 04:04, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - totally fails WP:V and appears to be a hoax. --Haemo 04:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, in case there's any question (which there shouldn't be by now). Apparent hoax, unverifiable. -- Rbellin|Talk 18:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Indiana-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 03:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Clear hoax, part of pattern of hoaxing by primary editor. Edward321 05:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, nonnotable and unverifiable at best, hoax at worst. NawlinWiki 17:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete totally unverifiable, most information is probably made up. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete: I hung about for ages on this trying to find out and give it the benefeit of the doubt - there is no doubt, delete. Giano 10:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.