Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Odin Brotherhood

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was del. Discounting unqualified editors, the score is del:16, keep/redir: 7 (or 5, if to discount Mmirabello and Thatcher131, who have insufficient edit history). mikka (t) 03:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 The Odin Brotherhood 1.1 Note about this AfD 1.2 Clean up 1.3 Note to new editors:

[edit] The Odin Brotherhood

del nonverifiable, It looks like only Mark Mirabello who wrote a book with the same title can say something about it. Since the article was created by a user:Mmirabello, I smell original research, too. mikka (t) 01:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Do not Delete. Yes, Professor Mirabello wrote the book. University of Glasgow (Ph.D.),University of Virgina (MA), University of Toledo (B.A.). Writing the book qualifies me to write an article. Please feel free to e-mail at mmirabello@shawnee.edu.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmirabello (talk • contribs)

Sure, to boost the sales of the book; it would be a good idea. Are there any independent confirmations of rich fantasy of Professor? Please read the policy wikipedia:Verifiability. mikka (t) 02:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I'm voting to delete unless it can cite sources Ruby 02:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete original research. Billbrock 02:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete reads like utter FictionCruft. I mean, sources?? Who is this important to? Hilarious WP:NOR, verifiability and blatant self-promotion issues too... Writing a book qualifies you to do exactly SQUAT on WP. The existence of a notable subject qualifies anybody to write an article about it, PhD or not... 173 unique Googles, nearly all of which are commercial listings for the book rather than any verification of the subject, [1] while the comments on the book's Amazon page (sales rank: #2,970,920) [2] could not stink more strongly of Sockpuppetry. Mirabello has been very clever with his linkscattering, especially the various legit sounding google references which eventually end up here. Nice try. ++Deiz 02:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Avi 02:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as non-notable and attempted WP:VSCA. When attempts to verify end up back at GeoCities... well, that pretty much settles it. --Kinu 03:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per all above. Royboycrashfan 03:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete idem. User has page here [3] Checked content at Amazone (in so far it was available), and contains factual problems, consistent with the lack of knowledge of 15 century, utter fantasies about traditions in Nordic religeon etc. Pure disgusting how a religeon is mutilated. I have removed all links to this page from other wikipedia articles. Online page of the brotherhood is only for the promotion of the book. KimvdLinde 04:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• redirect to Odinism. It appears to be about a book, and that book may be quoted there if notable. Note that if you publish a book first and then quote your book on WP, it does not qualify as "OR" (after all you may edit WP anonymously and would not have to reveal that you are the book's author). Treat like any other piece of fringe literature. dab (ᛏ) 07:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect per dab -- Simon Cursitor 09:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as non-notable, original research and vanitycruft. --Terence Ong (恭喜发财) 12:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It does exist [4] but it seems a completely non notable, online community. Elfguy 13:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to Germanic Neopaganism or Mark Mirabello. I think the content of the book is interesting as a cultural phenomenon within the milieu of Germanic Neopaganism rather than as documentation of a historically accurate secret society. HroptR 16:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete non notable. —-- That Guy, From That Show! ^(talk) 2006-02-08 15:29Z
• Delete falls below the threshhold of notability and smacks of vanity.--Isotope23 17:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Isotope23. Death Eater Dan 19:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Comments - The article seems, by virtue of its content, to not be subject to WP:V or WP:CITE. If this holds true, then it has no place here. However, a few caveats are worth mentioning:

• • We have the Oera Linda book with its own article at Wikipedia. The Odin Brotherhood and the Oera Linda book appear to be equal to each other in terms of factual content (id est, they are both fiction), according to the nature of their sources. I would not mind having The Odin Brotherhood here with its own article if WP:V or WP:CITE can be satisfied. I doubt that will happen, as Dr. Mirabello's book seems about as verifiable as Guido Karl Anton List's personal gnosis concerning the Armanen runes.

• • Additionally, I must respectfully disagree with HroptR, Dieter, and any other folk who wish to redirect the article in question to any Germanic neopaganism article here at Wikipedia, as that would lend a false credibility to Dr. Mirabello's book which it does not deserve. I base that judgement on having read the book itself, my education in relevant subjects, and finally on the rules governing Wikipedia articles. Odinism is, to my POV, a valid variant of Germanic neopaganism in our time, and to grant The Odin Brotherhood the status of being a valid academic reference, or even a commonly used spiritual source text for that religion would be quite inaccurate.

• → P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 00:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note about this AfD

Tracking all mentions of an entry or link across wikipedia and deleting them before the AfD is even completed is a form of harassment. I also perceive users placing 7 warning templates on the entry as a form of malicious harassment. There seems to be a total lack of assuming good faith and civility by many here, as well as the most severe violations of attacking new comers which I have ever seen. The editor has less than 25 edits, and has only been a member of wikipedia for three days. He doesn't even know how to sign his name with four tildes (look at the top of this page). This entry was not even 10 minutes old, before it was submitted for AfD. I think we need to wait and see if he is going to add further content, verifiable sources and clean up the entry - or whether it should be merged into another article. Contrary to what has been stated here, I have heard about this alleged secret society elsewhere in print and even on a radio show. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dab and myself are in fact the only editors who have voted in this AfD who have edited or contributed content at wikipedia about Germanic Neopaganism, Ásatrú, Odinism, Odinic Rite, Polytheistic Reconstructionsim, etc. and I feel that those who have not contributed to these subjects do not know if it is relevant or not because they don't know the subject matter whatsoever. Relax everyone. HroptR 16:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I do have knowledge about the topic. That I do not edit on these topics does not matter. --KimvdLinde 17:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Valid point; just because someone doesn't have anything to add to an article is no basis to automatically assume they have no knowledge of the subject matter.--Isotope23 17:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Most earlier contributions went through 146.85.84.60 contributions. Just for completness sake. --KimvdLinde 17:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

So he has been editing since the 3rd of February? How does this justify harassment? Regardless, of your expertise on the subject matter, NPOV dictates even more discretion if you find it personally disagreeable. HroptR 17:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but Wikipedia is not a list of links to all possible (fantasy) books written on a certain topic. --KimvdLinde 17:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Some well made points HroptR and I apologise to Mr Mirabello for biting... Still, as the creator of the page is clearly monitoring the debate one might reasonably expect any changes to happen quickly. We all appreciate very few among us have knowledge of this, perhaps because it is an inherently niche topic. We all want to promote our own interests (and commercial publications) but don't lose sight of whether this is really a topic for WP... It's a promo for a book, and would need to be completely rewritten to become some kind of objective article about the society, a society which you state is "alleged" to exist, and therefore doesn't sound extremely verifiable. ++Deiz 18:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

I have gone through and done a quick wikification of the article, so it is a book entry and not an advertisement. I ask editors to consider whether this should be redirected to Mark Mirabello (which also needs clean up) or elsewhere, and whether it is NPOV at this point. HroptR 19:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment The cleanup is better, but I still have a few reservations about this article. The excerpt section is overly long, and in my opinion unecessary. See The Jesus Mysteries for a better example of how this article could be done. Also, the controversy section is POV, basically attempting to defend the lack of sources by casting aspersions on the sourcing of unrelated works. Most importantly, I'm still not convinced this book has reached the threshold of notability. There are no set standards for books that I'm aware of like WP:MUSIC, so it's a judgement call.--Isotope23 19:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• I am planning to nominate the Mark Mirabello page for deletion this evening as it is an autobiography of a non-notable person. The book remains non-notable, it claims to be non-fictional, but without any verification and consequently not a usefull contribution to wikipedia. There is no indication that the website is from someone else than Mark Mirabello, or that any of the advertisments, or radio interviews were with anybody else than Mark Mirabello himself (there is documentation of a radio interview with him). Neither have I gotten any verification from within the Asatru or Odinist community that this group exists (some responses still pending). If he, or others provide verification for the non-fictional aspect of the book (or I get word from others within the community), I would reconsider whether there is potential of a seperate article on the brotherhood themselves. If not, it appear to be fictional work sold as non-fiction. Until then, I remain for deletion of the page as nom. --KimvdLinde 20:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC) Edited error on my site --KimvdLinde 14:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

So you are advocating purging all reference to him on wikipedia? You stated: Neither have I gotten any verification from within the Asatru or Odinist community that this group exists which community would this be? I don't think the argument is whether the group exists or not, but whether mention of a book should be purged because the content is questionable. Deleting the biography just seems like sheer malice. HroptR 20:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I am talking about deleting an AUTObiography Wikipedia:Auto-biography, in clear conflict with the policies of Wikipedia. And to answer your question, the Asatru/Odinist community in Europe and the USA where I am part off. --KimvdLinde 20:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC) It was an error on my site. --KimvdLinde 14:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

You might want to revise that - the person who authored the Mark Mirabello entry Stege1 has commented at the talk page. To wit: Mark Mirabello did not write the entry as stated in the nomination for deletion. HroptR 01:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

No, you are talking about deleting an autobiography in clear conflict with the GUIDLINES of Wikipedia. Strongly discouraged, but NOT absolutely forbidden. And if HroptR is correct, not an autobiography in the first place. Jcuk 09:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Delete. Now: No opinion. Mandrake of Oxford is a vanity press, as such its publications are not inherently notable and likely to be inherently non-notable. Ikkyu2 21:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Monicasdude asserts Mandrake is not in fact a vanity press. I have no way to verify this, so I've changed my opinion to No opinion. I note that [Mandrake's own web page], while maintaining a pretense of editorial standards, requests that books be submitted in ready-to-print CRC format, and can require authors to pre-order a quantity of books; a reputable publishing house would never permit either of these practices. Ikkyu2 02:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• This is still a vanity article about a seriously unnotable vanity book, written about a seriously sketchy, unencyclopedic topic. Even after efforts by someone acquainted with the subject to shed some light on things, the article has proved impossible to wikify. Vote remains: strong delete. I would also support nomination of the AutobioVanityCruft article Mark Mirabello. Said page (particularly the external links to a self-made profile page at "Shawnee State University" (which in turn is the least wikified article I have yet seen on a university) and a so called "radio" interview (click to see the term "radio" stretched to breaking point)) is as VanityCruftlicious as they come. ++Deiz 23:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Did you even read what you just responded to?  :) Ikkyu2 23:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey Ik, if you mean was I responding you then I wasn't (we seem to be in agreement here) and have reformatted.. otherwise...? ++Deiz 00:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Delete. Now that it's cleaned up it's clearly nn. Comparing one's lack of sourcing to biblical prophets just proves the point: when the book sells as many copies as theirs has, re-submit the article. Carlossuarez46 23:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Amazon.com sales rank of 546,286, the publisher seems like a vanity press. [5]. Peyna 00:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Minimally notable book by minimally notable author. Current publisher doesn't seem to a be a vanity press, doesn't show up on any author alert lists I've seen. Book is actually in-stock at Amazon (as are several others from the publisher) which isn't the norm for vanity presses. [6] I have little doubt that the book itself is of little intrinsic merit, but the same applies to Pokemon, Celine Dion music, and the collected works of Jackie Collins. Monicasdude 00:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment If Wikipedia adopted a Limbo namespace, this article could be moved to Limbo during the discussion on deletion. Moving an article to Limbo would remove it from the article namespace and prevent search engines from delivering suspicious content while the community decides whether to keep or delete it. For more information, see the discussion on establishing the Limbo namespace. Fg2 01:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Seems like a real (if obscure and un-authoritative) book from a legit publisher. The article has come a long way from its beginnings, and with further improvement (such as a reduction of the "Manifesto" section and NPOV work on the "Criticism" section) it'll be worth having on the server. -Colin Kimbrell 17:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Informative book and article. Good reference source. butterflyblues 20:20, 9 February 2006

• Keep. Interesting work. I think the author is well-researched and knows what he is talking about. dogbytes12 21:19 9 February 2006

• Keep. As a practicing Odinist, I use the book. The original article was flawed, but updates improved same. Good work HroptR! warhammer 21:25 9 February 2006

Nice try User: butterflyblues or should I say , User: dogbytes12 or should I say User: warhammer, but faking votes does not help you out, see for the trace that you just left here: [7] See also history for attempt to hide the fake voting by removing my and the fake entries. --KimvdLinde 04:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Desperate newbie / sock-meatpuppet scramble eh?? Nothing lends more credibility to a page than that... Been making some new friends HroptR?? ++Deiz 04:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not think it was HroptR, but some students from the university that like the professor very much (nothingb wrong with that). One of them made the page about him. When one of them got hold of the deletion request, things started. HroptR is sincere as far as I can tell, strong in his arguments, but not deceptive or anything bad. --KimvdLinde 04:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and please nobody think I'm accusing HroptR of anything, just remarking that the new postings mention him. ++Deiz 12:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

In this bizare play that is curently at stage, I just wanted to clarify things. --KimvdLinde 15:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment:Sockpuppetry and stacking votes is not my modus operandi. I know plenty of established wikipedia users I could encourage to vote or comment, but I have not. Mob rule is still mob rule. For me personally, not citing sources and verifiable research has undone this book entry, not group consensus or lack of notability. However, I think there is a fine line between fanatical deletionism and revisionism. People are being way too emotional about this on both sides of the issue. HroptR 16:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. According to OCLC FirstSearch-WorldCat, the FBI sees fit to keep this book in their academic library. The book has been published now by several publishers, Mandrake of Oxford is the most recent.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.85.124.121 (talk • contribs)

• That's interesting, a link to sources which verify that claim would be useful. ++Deiz 02:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• It can be verified at an obscure and little-used site, www.amazon.com. Here's a link to the previous, fourth, edition [8]. Monicasdude 02:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

FBI library. I have found that as well. But that is not surprising as some Asatruer/Odinists are neonazi in line with the misuse of our symbols during Nazi Germany, so I can imagine that the FBI would indeed get everything available. But I think we are digging very deep at the moment, and yes, we will find some stuff..... --KimvdLinde 02:41, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, we'll discover that the previous edition of the book was published by Holmes Publishing (who seem to have no website) and has a sales rank of #1,509,755. Far from being "little-used" and "obscure", Amazon is actually quite popular and well-known. Probably because it does more than sell books about the occult and Norse secret societies... ++Deiz 08:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• • • I am the student who created the article on Mark Mirabello. I did not create the article for The Odin Brotherhood and I have not encouraged any students or anyone else to create excess log ins to influence a vote. I find that accusation by KimvdLinde to be a bit upsetting. While I have only been a member at Wikipedia for a short while, I have used it for years and have never tried to add anything false or engage in any unethical practice. Stege1

I am not accusing you of adding the fake stuff. I am only saying that as soon as the word came out at the university, it started to rain anonymuous and new people at this page. I will change the wording to take away the confusion. Sorry for the misunderstanding. --KimvdLinde 15:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep but rewrite There are only about 10 University libraries worldwide that own this book. That's 10 more than any book I ever wrote, but its not a ringing endorsement either. Would it be acceptable to rewrite the article so it wasn't about the book but about the "Odin Brotherhood" as a possibly imaginery movement, listing the book as the source. That way it's not just a book advert any more. If somebody does hear about the Odin Brotherhood somewhere and tries to investigate at WP they would find an entry explaining where the term originated and why it is highly suspect. WP must have an article on Bigfoot, which probably doesn't exist either, right?Thatcher131 16:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete unless someone can point me to either A) a critical (not necessarily negative!) appraisal of the historical claims made in this book by someone with academic qualifications, or B) a critical (not necessarily negative!) appraisal of the book by a member of the polytheistic reconstructionist community and an indication that this is considered an essential text by some segment of the community. Until then, there just isn't enough information for us to write an NPOV article on this book. - AdelaMae ^{(talk - contribs)} 19:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey AdelaMae. I don't think any recons would subscribe to the Odin Brotherhood just because of the occult elements and secret society bit. For what it's worth, it is on the reading list of several neo-heathen Asatru /Odinist groups like the AFA with a blurb: "a fascinating, poetic, visionary, and many suspect, metaphorical, look at Odinic religion" and is mentioned on several Asatru webistes and forums briefly like this one. The radio show from Odin Lives linked in the article goes into the works impact as well as the veracity of the order. I just think it is a poor precedent to delete fringe authors because their works or beliefs aren't seen as valuable to the mainstream. Many subcultures are not highly represented on the internet. HroptR 20:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep This is a secret society. Perhaps it will be hard to find a critical historical study of it. In answer to AdelaMae's criteria "B" the Asatru Alliance considers this work to be important enought to include in in their suggested reading list of contemporary works. Click this to see.[[9]]stege1

• • Daughters of Frya also reportedly respect the teachings of the Oera Linda Book. ::shrug:: And the point is? Recommended reading lists from the Asatru Alliance are not particularly relevant to whether the article on The Odin Brotherhood is worth retaining here at Wikipedia. If the AA decides to laud Dr. Mirabello's work as sacred scripture/divinely inspired/whatever (which I doubt they would ever decide to do), then it would be a different matter entirely. A very small religious organisation recommending a book as being 'interesting' and 'possibly useful' does not give a book inherent credibility or verifiability. The book, and its respective article here, must stand on its own merit and on the rules found at WP:V and WP:CITE. → P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 04:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note to new editors:

There appears to be many editors who have edited anonymously or have created a username solely to vote on this issue. While we appreciate your concern and passion about this issue, unfortunately the input of new users does not have much weight in these matters, because you are not yet a contributing member of Wikipedia.

Also, it is expressly against Wikipedia policy to create more than one user account to affect the outcomes of deletion discussion or AfD. This is called sock puppetry. This practice is highly frowned upon by your fellow Wikipedia editors and is expressly discouraged by Wikipedia Policies and Guidelines.

Furthermore, every computer on the internet has a unique IP address, which in most instances, can identify the specific computer and the physical location used to make edits. If numerous editors in a vote all have the same IP address, this is evidence of sock puppetry, and your votes will not be counted. You could also be blocked from editing in the future. You are not completely anonymous!

From Wikipedia:Sock puppetry:

The Arbitration Committee has ruled that, for the purpose of dispute resolution, when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar editing habits they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets.

I encourage you to stick around Wikipedia and contribute to the project, regardless of the outcome of this vote. - HroptR 22:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

COMMENT Wild debate. Note that the book has a sales rank of 9,395 at Buy.com [[10]] Maybe its rank is lower at amazon because smart people look for deals--it is cheaper at buy.com! --146.85.84.60 01:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• Different retailers calculate their ranks based on completely different formulae. Amazon.com is an often used standard, so when an Amazon.com sales rank is quoted, it is being compared to other products with Amazon sales ranks, not the same product's sales rank on a completely different site. As you will see if you become a more experienced WP user, Buy.com ranks are not considered any kind of standard measure by Wikipedia editors. Your post also sounds like an advertising jingle. On those two counts you might want to strike that one. ++Deiz 02:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

COMMENT. The Oera Linda reference above is interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda The book has its name from the Linden family. Is it coincidence that Mirabello's middle name is "Linden"? --146.85.84.60 03:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Apparently a favourable coincidence to you since you have been adding (and been reverted in each case) links to The Odin Brotherhood in numerous articles here at Wikipedia. Please stop doing so. → P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 03:58, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

COMMENT. Here is the link to the FBI Library Collection. Type "Odin Brotherhood" or "Mirabello" to find it. http://fbilibrary.fbiacademy.edu/webopac/cgi/swebmnu.exe?act=3&ini=splusweb So, if the Odin Brotherhood does not exist, why is the FBI reading about it? Do you think they have titles on the "Fantastic Four"? "The Justice League"? What do you think, Mulder? Scully? --146.85.84.60 20:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• A simple reason is that the FBI does research on neonazi and white supremacist groups, some of whom are Odinist oriented. Just remember Nazi germany and the misuse of our symbols by them. So, they want to have the background knowlegde and make a library. Simple enough. --KimvdLinde 20:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• I changed the link above to go directly to the FBI library. In a quick search, I cannot find any other Odinist/Asatru titles there.... --146.85.84.60 21:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

COMMENT. Here is an interesting Portuguese-language site. http://paginas.terra.com.br/arte/sfv/Asatru.html Note they believe the Odin Brotherhood is ancient and is real. --146.85.84.60 22:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

The page is not of an Odinist group. Furthermore, all my sources within the Asatru and Odinist community report back that they think the book is a fantasy (or they never heard anything about it at all). --KimvdLinde 22:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

---

Comment. Here is an Argentine site of Odinists. Note they believe in the antiquity of the Brotherhood. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3290/ --146.85.127.124 23:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

COMMENT The Odin Brotherhood in Spanish! I found this through the Argentine site. see their links. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3290/odinhood.html --146.85.127.124 00:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove here 146.85.127.124. If you're suggesting that new sources have come to light which will enable you (you're clearly some kind of expert) to write an encyclopedic, verifiable, unbiased and objective article on this topic then maybe you should stop piling stuff onto this AfD page and DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE ARTICLE WHICH HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR DELETION. The majority of editors on this page know nothing and care even less about Odinism. What we do want to see are submissions which belong in Wikipedia. As it stands the article flies in the face of several of WP's criteria for inclusion and if you tot up the opinions of experienced editors (per the warning at the top of the page and the "Notes to new editors" piece by HroptR, several "editors" opinions will be discounted due to the evidence of sockpuppetry) you'll see the article could do with less hot air and more hard work. ++Deiz 01:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

COMMENT. I have been systematically demolishing the uninformed with facts. As for the article, it is already a murder victim, killed by people for emotional reasons.... --146.85.127.124 01:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.