Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Odee Company

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus to delete. Johnleemk | Talk 11:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Odee Company

Non-notable; although they seem somewhat larger than (e.g.) a small family-run printshop, they don't come across as being *that* big, and I can't find anything particularly notable about them in the article or on their website. Fourohfour 13:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

• Weak delete; seems to be of local interest at best. *Dan T.* 16:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

• (The following comment was originally posted at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/The Odee Company by User:BuzzTatom at 14:30, 5 December 2005) I am the person that wrote the article. This was only meant as a history of a 83 year old company with an intersting history of how it came about. I did not go into the history as much as I should have but I also did not want it to appear as though this was an advertisement. I have read the tutorial and first article pages. Can either of the people who put this up for deletion expound on their thoughts. I could go into how we are a $10 million dollar company which by PIA(Printing Industry of America)standards this is considered a rather large company. Just not sure what is stepping across the line or how to correct what editors don't like about this so to get this reinstated.
  • I was the (single) person who originally nominated this for AfD. It's not been deleted yet; we're still discussing it. If a majority disagree with me, the AfD tag will be removed and it won't get deleted. For what it's worth, I didn't think it was spam or advertisement-like... I just didn't think the company was notable enough to warrant an encyclopedia article. I don't believe that there are any hard-and-fast rules about how large a company has to be to warrant notability on size alone, so this could be open for debate. Fourohfour 15:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Thank you for feedback. I have added some more historical information on the page. That is why I feel that it warrants consideration. It is an 83 year old company that is connected to a 127 year old company(Goes Litho). Historically there are not a lot of companies that are that old that are still under their original name. Especially ones that sold something that is collectible at this point or were the largest legal form publishers in the state of Tx. We also are not just of local interest but have sold regionally with the Goes borders and sell nationally in all 50 states as well as internationally into Mexico and Canada. I just felt like that in this country it is important for us to keep a historical reference of companies that have been through the Depression, all of the World Wars and all the other historical times that businesses have had to withstand and succeed. Let me know if there would be anything else you would like to see on the page.
    • Comment The criteria for retention of articles about companies is set out in WP:CORP. If you have additional verifiable sources that would support notability as defined in WP:CORP, please provide them. The standards for verifiability are set out in WP:V -- Dalbury^(Talk) 00:53, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

• Weak delete, per Dan T Stifle 19:30, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, doesn't meet WP:CORP, no sources. If that changes, I'll consider changing my vote. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 00:53, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. The company is 83 years old and the author states that it is the largest legal forms printer in Texas. We can't have every small local business, but there is history here and the company has a state-wide #1 position (in an admittedly niche market). I see no good reason to delete it. -- DS1953 00:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - All statements in articles have to be verifiable per WP:V. If you know of a source thaqt verifies this article, please share it with us. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 01:16, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
    • I think your prior reference to WP:CORP is well-made, though that is a proposal that many editors have commented on as being too restrictive. Your comments based on Wikipedia:Verifiability, on the other hand, seem to imply that a statement must be verified rather than verifiable. It seems to me that all of the statements in the article can be verified. I have no reason to think that they are untrue and personally don't believe that is an appropriate test at AfD (short of an outright hoax, which a simple Google search confirms not to be the case here). You are entitled to your reasons for voting and I to mine. -- DS1953 22:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
      • Comment - And how is anyone supposed to know an article is verifiable without veritying it? I'll just note that the first paragraph of Wikipedia:Verifiability says, "editors should cite credible sources so that their edits can be easily verified by readers and other editors." I think it is unfair to put the onus of finding verifying sources on the reader. I think it is lazy and sloppy, and un-Wiki, to write an article without including sources. I'll continue to vote against any article that doesn't cite credible sources. If such sources are added, I'll reconsider my vote. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 23:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
• Dalbury thanks for the info on Corp & Verifiability. I did read both before posting the article. I can verify that Odee is the SW Goes distributor by their website goeslitho.com

I could send copyrighted borders and show the insignia in the art in several borders. I could have Chris Goes verify we have been the SW distributor since 1924 but that would also be his word as well. As far as the being the largest legal form publisher in Tx it was common knowledge to attorneys in the state in that time period who was the source for federal bankruptcy kits and legal form blanks. I do know the only other legal form publishers in TX were Pound Printing & Martin's Stationery(Will Odee stole their customer list). Neither are in existence any longer. The reason I know about Martin's is my grandfather was robert martin and that is also how I knew the history on Will Odee. We were several times the size of Martin's and Pound Printing and they actually had us print many of their forms due to our equipment being larger. The problem with private old companies is records are not kept that long. Knowledge is passed down by generations and my grandparents are long since gone. My father and mother are still alive and could verify all that I have said but I'm not sure how that applies to the rules. It has been a very important company at times for the legal and financial(stock) community but I'm not sure what verification I can give you beyond what I have offered. Please feel free to tell me if any of these ideas would suffice. Thanks for your consideration.

Buzz Tatom

• • Comment Can you cite a newspaper or business magazine that has featured the company in an article? I have developed a real bug about wanting to see credible sources cited in Wikipedia articles. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 00:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
• Here is a link to a conference I spoke at: www.pinc.org/vault/FallCon_2003.pdf (Printing Industry conference for California printers) I am on there under panelist. This doesn't again give you any historical reference on The Odee Company but establishes me as somewhat industry expert. I could have Joe Polanco President of PIA MIDAmerica(Printing Industries of America)verify that we have been around for many years although he is not old enough to have seen us in 1923. He could tell about us selling legal forms and being the supplier for Goes borders in the 7 state region for as long as he has been associated with the printing business. Any articles that we have been written in would be long gone from years ago. If you have another person from a company that we have been long associated with verify some of this info(Goes Litho) and you have an industry representative from PIA Mid America(Joe Polanco)tell you what he knows and I have shown via this link that I have been sought after to be a panelist for a printers conference does that not suffice to prove that I am what I say I am? Let me know if there is something else I can help with. Thanks, Buzz
• PIA's website is http://piamidam.org This is for anyones reference on Joe Polanco.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.