Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Great Story

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was RELIST. Splash 16:55, 5 August 2005 (UTC) Keep-

I find this an extremely valuable topic -- so much so that I just spent my whole day creating a well-linked wikified page based on Connie Barlow's version (including a whole page on Thomas Berry), only to come back and find that someone has created a stripped down version. While I think it has been stripped down a bit too much, it is probably a good holder for now. It is hard to find anything objectionable in it. It can be expanded to be more substantive and useful later, but it is best to start small, I say. I've been writing a lot on this subject lately and, as a blogger, I love to use Wikipedia to provide links to unusual concepts that are poorly summarized elsewhere on the web. So this is a fabulous resource for me. -- Blindeagle cii at igc dot org

Keep-

   Modifications are a good idea for it to fit as a Wiki article, but overall, 

definitely keep. This is a popular topic and it would look bad if we were

silent on it.

-Dr. Jon Cleland Host  (equinoxjjh@yahoo.com)

This is of great importance. For the first time there is a story that can be shared across religions, cultures, international boundaries based on recent scientific discovery. It should definitely be part of Wikipedia. Frances Lorenz (lorenzmf@AOL.com)

Keep but modify The topic is valuable, but even as rewritten by Connie it does not read as a factual/review sort of encyclopedia entry but as a pretty strong advocacy essay for the concept, and with expressions that come across as fairly pronounced hype. I think that might explain some of the discomfort reactions. It may also actually put off a signficant proportion of readers rather than pulling them in. Advocacy is fine on one's own site, but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia on which people can rely for neutral and objective information. I think the article should be rewritten to remove the advocacy and hype and to appear and indeed be more or less neutral. I know that's tough for someone deeply involved in the subject, but it might help to imagine oneself as an academic - just describing this concept and its development and versions (theist and non-theist) to their students as one approach out of many. If there have been any critiques of The Great Story approach, mentioning them would also help. Paul Harrison harrison at dircon dot co dot uk

Keep - While there might be a better way to Wikify it the consciousness expressed is far to important to not be in the Wikipedia. Over time, that clean up will take place.

Jim Brauner - jimbrauner@earthlink.net

KEEP The subject matter is critically important to the level of Copernicus, Davinci, Newton and Einstein as to how and why phyical science discoveries have a direct effect on the social aspect of humans and earth itself.

Robert Nemanich rwnemanich@mychi.com

[edit] The Great Story

Keep The Great Story is the story of the human relationship to the Earth and the universe through time. Telling the Great Story entails tracing life back to its roots and highlighting the many miraculous occurrences along the way that make it possible for us to be having this discussion. Wikipedia is an appropriate place for a synopsis introducing the public to the Great Story and the thought that has gone into its discovery and dissemination. Brian Higbie (gringodelanoche@hotmail.com)

Unencyclopedic personal essay, possibly original research. --malathion ^talk 20:24, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: In the first sentence of the article, it says it was coined by Thomas Berry and Brian Swimme in their 1992 book, "The Universe Story". When a source is stated how can it be original research? Sonic Mew | talk to me 20:54, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
  • But it still seems to be worthy of a delete vote. Sonic Mew | talk to me 21:01, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
• It is not the term that is OR, but the article discussing it is either a recounting of one book (POV) or the editor's interpretation of that book (OR). Either way, delete. Robert A West 22:12, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Unless, of course, someone comes up with a reasonable semblance of an NPOV, researched article. Robert A West 22:13, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

The above readers have misunderstood the importance of the Great Story entry. The Great Story is the story of a new cosmology for all the people of planet Earth. The Great STory is the first time in human history that all human beings have the same cosmology. It is also a story that heals the rift between science and relgion. The Great Story brings together into one narrative everything science has learned about our source in the twentieth century. For the first time we know all the molecules and atoms in our bodies were created in the explosion of a star. We were all "out there" at one time. So were all the other animals and plants on this Earth. We were out there in the forms of atoms and minerals. That means we are all intimately connected - all of us every plant and every animal. This is terribly important and perfect for Wikipedia. Bill Bruehl, bbruehl@bellsouth.net Preceding unsigned comment by 65.4.153.7 The essay is neither the recounting of one book nor the editors interpretation of one book. It is, rather, a short introduction to a fairly large body of research. See here: http://www.thegreatstory.org/what_is.html Michael Dowd, co-editor of entry<mbdowd@bigplanet.com>cell: 425-760-9941 204.210.56.185 (talk · contribs))

It is a complex concept that embodies an evolutionary advance forging the meaning of physical science and mythology of humans, but it should be shortened. As for deleting it altogether it would be analagous to deleting references to Copernicus on 1600.(Unsigned comment by 67.37.50.91 (talk · contribs))

• Comment: The problem is that it is too complex. Rewriting it so that it is easier for those unfamiliar with the subject to understand it may make it more likely to be kept. Sonic Mew | talk to me 13:40, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

Keep. The article is not OR (as noted by Sonic Mew above) nor is it a "recounting of one book (POV) or the editor's interepretation of that book (OR)." The editor(s) of the article, Michael Dowd and Connie Barlow, are both published authors and are well known for their leading role in explaining and disseminating information from many diverse sources the various and evolving contributions to the "Great Story." Barlow is a scientist and science writer (Evolution Extended (MIT Press), The Ghosts of Evolution (Basic Books), Green Space, Green Time (Copernicus), et al. Dowd is the author of Earth Spirit: A Handbook for Nurturing an Ecological Christianity and he has written many articles and presented "The Great Story" to many faith traditions. The Great Story has inspired many others: authors, scientists, artists, musicians (even a rap artist), educators (especially Montessori teachers), economists (David Korten, e.g.) children's books (Jennifer Morgan's Born with a Bang and From Lava to Life), and many others. Regarding Day/Night or Left Brain/Right Brain thinking, see Leonard Shlain's The Alphabet vs the Goddess: the Conflict between Word and Image; or more philosophically, see Gregory Bateson's Sacred Unity: Further Steps to an Ecology of Mind. Mainstream? Not yet. The Gaia Hypothesis, first proposed by James Lovelock and Lynn Margulis, and first published by Stewart Brand in Whole Earth Review in 1975, remains controversial 30 years later but it has stimulated a whole new field of "earth systems" and inspired "deep ecology" and "ecofeminism." The Great Story is similarly a seminal idea that is challenging our past views of the relationship, or lack thereof, between science and religion. Debate about the Great Story is welcome, but for those who are skeptical, please consider learning more about it at www.thegreatstory.org. Chuck Lynd <Lynd.7@osu.edu>

I've already expressed my support of this topic in the discussion section, but for what it's worth I will vote for it again here. The Great Story metaphors are provocative and worthy of discussion groups in education, philosophy, and theology. I have followed the writing and speaking of Great Story proponents since 1997 and have been impressed at its adaptability to the theological frameworks of religiously progressive congregations. John Brewer <jbrewer@sunflower.com>

• This has certainly attracted a lot of anons. The trouble is that the article does not make it clear what "The Great Story" actually is. thegreatstory.org did make it slightly clearer to me, but the article stil does not do enough for those unfamiliar with the subject. Rewrite the articleto make it clearer, then come back to defend it. Sonic Mew | talk to me 19:03, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

• Keep

It doesn't seem to be within Wiki policy to delete something simply because you don't understand it. ...or because it may appear to challenge your religous belief. Wiki policy states:

You don't have to vote on every nomination; consider not participating if:

   * a nomination involves a topic of which you are ignorant.

Presumably, that would mean that recommending a page for deletion would be included in the above policy.

In other words, I might suggest that Pokemon pages, for example, be deleted because I can not comprehend the appeal and find no value to humanity for them. Those pages seem like commercial advertising rather than an encyclopaedic entry.

• • But it is the fact that this article cannot be comprehended in its present form that makes it deleteable. This is not about comprehending the appeal of "The Great Story". It is the fact that it is not written to help those unfamiliar with the subject understand it. If you can't do that, then this does not deserve to stay. Sonic Mew | talk to me 14:07, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

• Massive, massive, massive cleanup. I think that it is impossible to tell whether this is encyclopedic in the current form. Also, this just stinks of possible copyvio. It reads like an essay, it's not wikified, it's not in good form, it has tons of POV. I think that a vote on this right now is really inappropriate. Mmmbeer 01:14, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep for all the reasons given, but clean up to put it into Wiki style. KHerbst August 1, 2005

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. < Wikipedia:Votes for deletion

I vote Keep but to have it put into Wiki style, whatever that is. This is a powerful story and movement providing an inspiring integrative view of the universe, planet, human informing both science and religion globally.

I also vote for Wiki to develop a more intuitive easy human interface for keeping,voting, posting etc to promote this interesting concept. See Craigslist for better ideas on how to do this. Also CD Baby has gotten this concept down pretty well. 8/05 Alan Tower [edit]

KEEP Having read so many, many books that reference the beautiful combining of science and mysticism,and the need for a living cosmology; it is hard to believe this concept would be unfamiliar. The Great Story transcends all religions but one source would be books by Christian theologian, Matthew Fox. In Fox's The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, p. 132 he speaks of mindfulness. "It opens their minds and hearts to the universe, to what is and to where we are: citizens of a vast twenty-billion-year history that is still unfinished and which we are called to complete; citizens of a universe of one hundred billion galaxies, of which ours is a mysteriously small one." 206.162.192.39 15:51, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Susan Heitzman

KEEP That folks are unfamiliar with the Great Story concept is precisely why it is so important to have an article like this in Wiki. I am a university professor who uses this idea (Great Story/Evolutionary Epic/Universe Story)as the fundamental framework for a 2-semester Introduction to Natural Science course that integrates physics, chemistry, earth science, astronomy, cosmology, and biology. Given what science has taught us in the last century or so (and especially in recent decades) about the origin and evolution of the universe, Dobzhansky's famous statement that "nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution" must now be expanded to something like "nothing makes sense except in light of the Great Story". The idea that ALL of science fits together into a single seemless creation story is an extremely powerful one, with implications that we are just beginning to grasp. I don't really feel qualified to speak to how (or whether) to "Wikify" this article better, but please keep its essential ideas intact. Jim Lorman (lorman@edgewood.edu)

KEEP I feel it fulfills a necessary function, being the realization of a perceived need for a modern Creation Myth. It is neither Science nor Religion, per se, but points to an awareness that life includes elements of both. In our modern world, with 200 years of mechanistic reductonism in the Life Sciences and 100 years since we proved the basis for Quantum Mechanics and Relativity, we need a view to bridge the philosophical gaps in our worldview. Physics has shown that the mechanistic view is wrong, but people in the Life Sciences point to the success of reductionism, and take mechanism as a given. Mainstream Religion doesn't help us to deal with the issues like the origin of consciousness and the evolution of sentient life, and mainstream Science has few answers, which makes The Great Story a necessary pursuit for those who seek to have a satisfying account of our origins. Jonathan Dickau --67.87.247.33 18:02, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

KEEP I like Connie's re-write, but I had just completed subtantial edits to inform those new to the Great Story idea. It would be nice if someone could weave in some of my changes, as I don't want to start again from scratch. Either way, I still think the topic is essential. Jonathan Dickau --67.87.247.33 20:38, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

_________________________________

SUGGESTED REWRITE:

"The Great Story" is an umbrella term for a movement that is manifesting today in scientifically literate cultures whereby new cosmological understandings made possible by modern science are translated into story forms that can provide the same kind of foundation for leading meaningful lives, in service to larger communities, that have traditionally been provided by a people's "creation story." Thomas Berry (born 1915, USA), a Catholic priest, academician, and self-proclaimed "geologian," began in the 1970s urging western culture to integrate the new cosmology offered by modern science into its religious expressions, as a form of update needed not only for religious consistency with the world as we now know it but also for the role he envisioned it would play in evoking "ecospirituality," "Earth Literacy," and a sense of sacred relationship to the natural world that would in turn foster a mutually enhancing relationship between the human milieu and the rest of, what he calls, "the Earth Community."

"The Great Story," "the Story of the Universe", and "the Epic of Evolution" are all synonyms for artful renditions of the new cosmology made available through modern science. The Great Story is science rendered as meaningful, motivating, and sometimes metaphorical narrative. A foundational book in this movement is the 1992 "The Universe Story," coauthored by mathematical cosmologist Brian Swimme and cultural historian Thomas Berry. In 1980 Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" series, which aired on public television, expressed a celebratory understanding of the evolutionary story that was viewed by tens of millions of people. In a 1978 Pulitzer-Prize-winning book "On Human Nature," Harvard biologist Edward O. Wilson signaled the importance of this endeavor of modern, factually based mythmaking by declaring, "The evolutionary epic is probably the best myth we will ever have." Anthropologist and religious naturalist Loren Eiseley titled his first book of essays that celebrated evolution, "The Immense Journey" (1957). Around the same time, French Jesuit (and paleontologist) Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, presented the evolutionary story with a mystical and christological emphasis, in his posthumously published book “The Phenomenon of Man.” Aldo Leopold, a leader in the early conservation movement, wrote of the grand evolutionary saga as "the odyssey of evolution," in his 1948 "Sand County Almanac.” And in the early through mid 20th century, evolutionary biologist Julian Huxley wrote humanistic essays and books attesting to the power of regarding this "epic of evolution" as a form of "Religion Without Revelation."

"The Great Story" thus refers to any telling of a cosmic creation story grounded in the modern, mainstream sciences. Peoples throughout the world have, of course, developed cosmologies — that is, understandings of how land, water, sky, plants and animals, humans, the sun and moon and stars all came into being, what purpose each of these elements serves in the whole, and how the human is to live "in accord" (quoting mythologist Joseph Campbell) with all of reality, known and unknown. Traditional ways of transmitting these varied cosmological and ethical understandings have included creation stories, parables, epic poems, songs, dances and other manifestations of the human capacity to convey sequences of events and express relationships in meaningful ways in order to provide the fundamental context for living one's life. For peoples throughout the world who are still primarily embedded in oral traditions, these understandings and teachings are so deeply interwoven into their cultures and psyches that anthropologists refer to the amalgams as "lifeways." For cultures in which symbolic language has been translated into writing, and in which written documents are regarded as the primary (even divine and inerrant) sources for maintaining and passing on cosmological and ethical wisdom, these understandings and expressions are what is referred to by the term "religion."

The new cosmology that undergirds various tellings of "The Great Story" is mainstream science — that is, reality as understood by the collective scientific community that publishes in the leading scientific journals and which is taught in science courses at leading institutions of higher learning throughout the world. Because mainstream science is grounded in an evolutionary understanding of cosmos, Earth, life, and culture, "The Great Story" manifests as creation stories and parables that celebrate an evolutionary understanding of reality: galactic evolution, stellar evolution, planetary evolution, biological evolution, cultural evolution.

The galaxies, stars, planets, and known and possible life forms are all presented by mainstream science to have developed through time by natural processes that can be studied and tested using scientific means. For example, it is possible today to view how galaxies looked in the past simply by using our space telescopes to image galaxies billions of light-years away, which is also, necessarily, billions of light-YEARS distant in time. It is possible to observe the spectra of light radiated from stars and re-emitted by ionized atoms in their surroundings to identify matter existing vast distances outside our own star system. Scientists also employ chemical and thermodynamic calculations to understand how stars today, as well as stars of the past, are forming all the atoms of the Periodic Table of Elements heavier than helium, through processes of "stellar nucleosynthesis." Although scientists cannot similarly witness past biological beings living their lives in real time, they do examine fossils, record the position of such fossils in radiometrically dated geological strata, and study genetic relatedness of living life forms in order to piece together well-supported understandings of how Earth life has evolved. Similarly, the various sciences of physical and cultural anthropology, archeology, linguistics, cultural history, evolutionary psychology, and others allow a vast community of trained experts around the globe, and of all ethnicities and religious faiths, to piece together stories of how the human psyche and human cultures have changed through time.

Scientific understanding of this evolving universe is now so vast, and the scientific disciplines and expertise so fragmented, however, that nonscientists may regard this edifice of knowledge as beyond understanding. Modern peoples may well embrace the applied fruits of the scientific enterprise (traveling in jets and ingesting modern medicines), but many still fail to grasp the cosmological significance of the scientific enterprise, consciously or unconsciously holding instead to pre-modern, non-evolutionary cosmologies. Or, they may be living their lives and teaching their young wisdom and values in fragments, outside the context of any integrated creation story -- that is, outside of a self-consistent and meaningful account of how things are, how they came to be, and what is important.

Thomas Berry has proposed that modern cosmology meaningfully presented should not be regarded as yet another competing religion. Rather, the new cosmology fosters a "metareligious" understanding that will ultimately be expressed in a wide variety of ways in and through each of the established religions and secular worldviews. There are many published (or internet accessible) writings of Christians, Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Unitarian Universalists, religious naturalists, pagans, and others who express how this new cosmology can not only reconcile with their spiritual tradition but how it positively enhances it. Some have incorporated this new understanding into established holy days and rituals; some have created entirely new spiritual expressions -- e.g. "The Cosmic Walk," "The Cosmic Communion," and "Great Story Beads,” also known as "cosmic rosaries.” (All of these terms can easily be googled.) Multi-media (DVD) expressions of it are also available, notably titles that feature the work of physicist Brian Swimme, Dominican Sister Miriam Therese MacGillis, evolutionary evangelist Rev. Michael Dowd, and science writer and Unitarian Universalist Connie Barlow. Short multi-media programs are also posted on the internet.

There are secular and religious educational curricula available (for adults and for children) in book or web-based forms. (The website www.TheGreatStory.org is a central node for accessing web forms of these materials.) Curricula accessible through the internet include "evolutionary parables," as well as course outlines and graphics for helping children locate "Birthday Stars" and for learning that "We Are Made of Stardust." "Our Continental Story" provides playful curricula and participatory processes for both adults and kids to learn the 65 million year (post-dinosaur) story of the comings and goings of mammals in North America. "Death through Deep-Time Eyes" examines how a dozen scientific disciplines present a new "creation story" that depicts physical death (of stars and continents as well as life forms) as not only natural but essential for evolutionary development.

The most popular children's books in The Great Story movement are those of Jennifer Morgan and Dana Llyn Andersen: "Born with a Bang" and "From Lava to Life." "The Kids Book of Awesome Stuff," by Charlene Brotman is a popular children's book in workbook form.

Global Education Associates Upper Midwest had published a reader, “Amazing Universe,” that offers text and guidelines for a 6-segment self-guided or group discussion course on The Great Story.

In summary, The Great Story embraces and includes all other stories. It is the science-based epic of evolution that can be told in ways that validate and uplift traditional religious stories by revealing the magnitude of their central truths – truths that have fostered cultural persistence over hundreds and thousands of years. The Great Story not only provides a faithful interpretation of the past; it allows for a deepening understanding of the past, as our awareness and knowledge grow. It is thus “A Story of the Changing Story.” Various tellings of The Great Story also may offer meaningful and empowering ways of understanding the challenges of the present and for entering the future energized by realistically hopeful and inspiring visions.

Rewritten by Connie Barlow - cbtanager@bigplanet.com ________________________________________________________

• Keep I think the rewrite addresses most of the above issues. As I understand it, "The Great Story" is a way of developing a worldview from the story of evolution. This worldview seems comprehensive and inclusive and flexible in a way that honors past and present scientific and religious thinking and looks forward to what may be next. Lisa Carrillo Lcarrillo4tll 21:20, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

• COMMENT. Sheesh, that anons have totally destroyed this VfD page. Anyhow, I rewrote the whole fricking thing. I removed all the POV, killed about 90% of the entry because it didn't explain what "The Great STory" was, and I somewhat wikified. The way it was before was pure propaganda. Anyway, vote away! Perhaps we can bring this back for a revote.Mmmbeer 21:42, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Nice work. It's looking better already! If we do bring this to a revote, I suggest limiting the amount of voters, (the usual so-many-edits rule,) so that we can do this properly! Sonic Mew | talk to me 18:31, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

KEEP Connie Barlow's new version addresses the issues raised above. elisabet@sahtouris.com

• Keep Mmmbeer's version. The long versions are not encyclopedic -- verbosity is a vice, not a virtue, in an encyclopedia. There is a legitimate kernel of an article in explaining what the term means and putting it into proper context. DS1953 23:34, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
• Comment, my vote is delete if the anons keep changing this to some sort of forum for proselytizing this belief system. Mmmbeer 00:38, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

KEEP This topic is important, but I would eliminate Mmmbeers version as it's too uninformative to provide any meaningful insight into the subject, or even a worthwhile definition of what "The Great Story" is and what purpose it attempts to fulfill. Admittedly, some of what appeared in earlier entries was 'fluff,' but a reader should come away with a clear understanding of the basic ideas behind "The Great Story". I think Connie Barlow's re-write does that fairly well. Mmmbeer's severely edited form makes the entry almost meaningless. Jonathan Dickau --67.87.247.33 03:49, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

KEEP New version with edits as of this time serves the public well to inform about TGS, but is sufficiently brief, encyclopedic, and informative. It suffers from little or no 'fluff' and tells readers what they need to know, to learn more if desired. Jonathan Dickau - jond4u@optonline.net --67.87.247.33 15:25, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.