Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Great Lakes Group

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. John254 00:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Great Lakes Group

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The Great Lakes Group (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Organisation which doesn't quite meet the notability guidelines, I don't think. We don't as a rule have articles on the tug companies in Dartmouth, Dover or Antwerp. I'm also concerned that there may be a hint of vanity in the article being created. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 16:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I should add that the IP addresses expressing 'keep' arguments are all from the Great Lakes area of the United States.

All of the IP Addresses are not from the Great Lakes area and even if they did, the Great Lakes area encompasses eight US States representing about 30% of the U.S. population.

I'm withdrawing my nomination, if everyone is agreed - although I strongly recommend the article gets re-written, and that the number of pictures is cut down. Article should also have a close eye kept on it, as it's the only article about a tugboat company. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 03:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with CMLITC on the re-write and cut-down of the gallery. More encyclopedic, less promotional, and maybe those who have participated here who have the sources could expand the coverage of similar or competing operations. Acroterion _(talk) 03:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep To start, I am bias because I am the primary contributor to this site. However, I believe The Great Lakes Group does meet the notability guidelines. The Great Lakes Towing Company is currently in its 109th year of operation which was started by John D. Rockefeller and other notable industrialists. Further, it is the largest tugboat company operating on the Great Lakes and everyone in the maritime industry knows about “The Towing Company.” This Wikipedia site was created after hearing about several requests for it to be created. To address the comment about the lack of other tugboat companies in Wikipedia; Wikipedia currently has a site for Crowley, Foss, and Seabulk (all tug companies), the site also hosts other maritime companies which The Great Lakes Group does business with including Maersk, Canadian Steamship Lines, and the Mathur Museum. Finally, in regard to the comment “there may be a hint of vanity in the article”, I agree to an extent, however, I am trying to clean it up. With some time, I believe The Great Lakes Group article will be a great asset and notable addition to the Wikipedia site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.236.0.82 (talk • contribs)

I'd be wary about saying that 'everyone in the industry knows about us'. I am in the maritime industry, but I haven't. It'd be better to say that some of the people who work in the maritime industry in my area know about the company. Crowley Maritime are a large shipping firm who only deal with tugs slightly, I can't seem to find an article on Foss (although I have heard of them, they do a fair bit of ocean towing), and we don't have an article for Seabulk either. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 21:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I will regress, not everyone in the maritime industry has heard of The Great Lakes Towing Company because that is an impossible statement. However, I have been in the maritime industry for over 10 years and I have yet to meet someone who has not heard of The Great Lakes Towing Company. Moran, Crowley, and Foss hold the East, Gulf, and West Coats, and GLT holds the Great Lakes. Further, Crowley started with the tug business and its business is still primarily tugs, I used to work for them.165.236.0.82 21:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What you personally know doesn't mean anything to us, as you're nothing but an anonymous IP. Even if you were logged in, the Essjay controversy showed the peril in relying on personal testimony for Wikipedia articles. Thus the request for sources, not your own statements. FrozenPurpleCube 23:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep I have been watching the creation of this article closely as I am very excited about its creation. I do not believe it should be deleted as everyone in the maritime industry knows The Great Lakes Towing Company (The Great Lakes Group). It should be noted that Wikipedia has articles about Z-drive tugs, while Tugz Internation was the first Company in the United States to build and operated Z-drive tugs. I would think if Z-drive tugs is worthy of an article, the first company to build Z-drive tugs in the United States would also be worthy of an article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:R.Ocasio (talk • contribs)

Again, I'd be weary of some of your points. 'Tugz Internation' may have been the first company in the US to build and operate Z-drive tugs - but then why not have an article for the first UK company? And the first Chinese one? And Dutch one? And Finnish one? Pretty soon we have an encyclopedia full of companies 'that first operated' a type of tugboat that is, in the grand scheme of things, not that important. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 21:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep The maritime industry is often the forgotten industry. Everyone must remember that almost everything that you use day-to-day was on a ship or barge at one time or another. The Great Lakes Group does barging and tows these ships that transport everything from clothing to cement. If it was not for The Great Lakes Towing Company, massive amounts of cargo would not reach the people and industries in the Midwest and there would be billion ($) lost. I have not personally contributed to this article yet, but I have been watching its evolution and would like to see more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.191.125.253 (talk • contribs)

Keep – And for the group above…how about cutting down our comments and expressing a definite keep or delete rather than editorializing that never gives a definitive answer. Shoessss |  Chat  18:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Ok, folks, please, sign your post by using ~~~~ (that's four tildes), and don't worry so much about the formatting. There's no need to add "comments" to describe things that are better off described as keep or delete. Nor is there a need to number things. Now as to the subject of this article, the best way to make it keepable is to read WP:ORG and provide coverage in multiple third-party sources. So far I'm not seeing it. FrozenPurpleCube 19:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree with this. I am being a bit harsh. But I'd still like to see references in magazines and newspapers - preferably national or international ones - that would make this company worthy of inclusion. We don't want a floodgate opening here - the Great Lakes aren't that special! Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 21:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep This is a category of industry that is underrepresented in Wikipedia. It is difficult to make an assertion of notability in these cases largely because press coverage tends to be confined to industry publications or incidental mention in the context of a maritime disaster. The most similar article I can find here is Smit International, which has conducted a number of high-profile towing and salvage operations - and that's no more than a stub. GLG could be condensed, but it is sourced - the Detroit Free Press, Cleveland Plain Dealer and New York Times certainly qualify. Acroterion _(talk) 21:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It is good that they started referencing (New York Times, Detroit Free Press, etc.). Are there any references in industrial magazines such as the Seaway Review or the like? 70.191.125.253 23:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep I saw their coverage in the New York Times and see them all the time in the trade journals, definitely a notable company/article24.239.61.15 14:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep They seem to have a near-monopoly on tugboat operations on the Great Lakes. That's important business. The fact that this is a privately held company means it won't have some of the coverage that is typically found for publicly traded companies. Don't delete them for being privately held.--orlady 05:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep The Great Lakes ARE special to the many people who live here and love the ships, the crews and shipping in general that goes on around us every day. The Great Lakes Towing Company is a notable player in the marine industry in our area. Keep this article please. 69.216.168.1 14:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep Truthfully, I'm slightly taken aback at the statement that the Great Lakes aren't that important. Not only do they hold 20% of the world's fresh water, they facilite a robust shipping economy between the east coast ocean ports and the bulk of the United States, especially the industrial sector. But, I digress. To the task at hand. The Great Lakes Towing Company, even if it weren't the most prevelant maritime towing establishment, is still notable enough to be worth mention on Wikipedia. Towing is a huge part of maritime shipping. Getting finished goods and raw materials from place to place efficiently is of great importance to the economic success or failure of a region. Without tow boats, barges and freighters which carry many different raw materials for industries along the Great Lakes could not deliver their cargo. I understand a lot of modern ships are equipped with bow thrusters, which allow them to manuever more efficiently, but even these boats need a push or a tow once in a while. Since it has been addressed, let's put the history of the company aside and focus on what ways this company works to keep the American economy moving. Taking a purely economical standpoint, this article, though it needs much attention and editing, is worth keeping. 84.115.137.214 15:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The Great Lakes aren't that important. Whether or not they hold fresh water is irrelevant. They serve as bulk shipping route between one part of a single country, and another part. Towing is of importance to shipping, you're right - but they aren't large international towing firm - indeed, they are a single towing firm that operates solely on one system of lakes, and are no more important than Baltic, Chinese, or European towing firms. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 20:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, isn't Canada still a country? Anyway, ocean-going ships can and do traverse the Great Lakes on a regular basis. The Saint Lawrence Seaway permits ocean-going ships to reach Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago. I've seen German cruise ships going through the Soo locks. I believe a major portion of Canadian grain exports go through Thunder Bay, Ontario. Acroterion _(talk) 20:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Is someone going around deleting articles about Baltic, Chinese, and European tugboat operators???? If there are no articles about those tugboat operators, it's presumably because they have not yet been written. A lack of articles about Baltic Sea, Chinese, or European tugboat operators is not a reason to delete articles about tugboat operators in other bodies of water. --orlady 21:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Also note that The Great Lakes Group does not just serve "one part of a single country" but actually have serviced (and still service) San Juan, Pearl Harbor, various ports along the U.S. West Coast, Port Everglades, Norfolk, and when vessels are under distress various ports in Canada. Further to the previous comment, servicing of forign vessels / companies (non-U.S. vessels / companies) makes up well over 50% of the Great Lakes Group's business. 165.236.0.82 22:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.