Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Edge of Night (song)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 13:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Edge of Night (song)

The Edge of Night (song) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This article is about a song from Lord of the Rings: Return of the King that is less than a minute long. The song itself does not fulfill notability guidelines (WP:MUSIC), there is a lack of available relevant sources for the article, it is not linked to any other article, it is basically a rehashing of the plot of the film it's from, and, finally, it may constitute as copyright violation with the posting of the lyrics. Several strike-outs, as several problems have been remedied. María (habla conmigo) 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment - I have removed the lyrics to resolve copyvio concerns. TerriersFan 00:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Per nom. No assertion of notability. Article is poorly sourced. --Bryson{Talk}{Edits} 15:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep (as creator) - I do believe that this song is extremely qualified for notability, as layed out by [1]. Please see for yourself, but The Edge of Night meets #4, #10, y #11. #4: This is the signature song of Billy Boyd, so that one is met. #10: Pippin's song is, behind Into the West, the most well known of the songs from Return of the King. And if any of this fails to satisfy you, as I believe it will, The Edge of Night hits #11 right on the nose: it appeared in a major motion picture. Bmrbarre 22:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Please note that the cited guidelines above are only proposed guidelines. María (habla conmigo) 23:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment And please note that there are no other existing guidelines laid out for singles songs. Bmrbarre 23:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Correction: the song isn't a single because it wasn't released. María (habla conmigo) 01:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - The correct title of the track is The Steward of Gondor (featuring Billy Boyd) ([2], [3], [4]). The vocals of the song that make up The Edge of Night are found at 2:34-3:35 out of a track that is only 3:53 long. The song (meaning Steward of Gondor) is, along with eighteen other tracks, part of an award winning soundtrack, and yet only one other song exists as an article: "Into the West (song)." There is no question of that song's notability, however. María (habla conmigo) 01:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment If you feel you must, then please move the page, and instead of complaining about the sources, please help me to source it. Thanks. Bmrbarre 01:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Added a reference, perhaps layout should follow that of 'Into the West' there's only enough for a paragraph and some tighter references. 'Into the West' needs references & citations as well, since it has unsourced statements.Tttom1 04:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Perhaps the article should be rewritten to principally focus on Tolkien's original poem [5] (which appears in a totally different context in the book) since the song derives from that. The original has been adapted/set to music by other parties (The Tolkien Ensemble, at least - see Complete Songs & Poems) so info about their versions would then go in the article, which should be named "A Walking Song". In any case the article should belong in the categories Category:Middle-earth poetry and Category:Middle-earth music. Uthanc 11:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • If it were to be entirely rewritten to focus mainly on the song, I can see two potential problems with it: first, the article name does include the fact that it's a song, so if a majority of the focus is changed, it would have to be moved -- which would be no big deal. Second, what are the chance of finding reliable/critical/relevent sources about the poem? I think there would be a less chance for that then finding them about the song. María (habla conmigo) 12:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Besides The Lord of the Rings itself, Tolkien scholarship may have produced material about the poem. I don't really know... What are the Wikipedia notability standards for poetry? At least the author is famous/notable, and it appears in a famous/notable work... Uthanc 16:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that turning this article into an article on the poem with the song only taking up a little part of it is a great idea. Check this out, Uthanc: is this what you mean? [6] I'm really busy for until next tuesday, so I will not be able to do any major work on the article. In fact, I'm doing a term paper on the Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Bmrbarre 23:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Support Uthanc's idea of creating an article about the poem itself, where its use in the movie can be discussed also. --Fang Aili talk 13:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete in its present form - this does not meet the proposed song guidelines at WP:MUSIC. That a film score won an Academy Award does not mean that every segment of it is notable. The notion of writing an article on the poem and discussing its various musical interpretations is a good one. Otto4711 05:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • An entire article about a song lasting less than one minute that appears in some movie? MiddleEarthcruft. Condense it into a single short paragraph at most, and merge it somewhere. -- Hoary 08:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as nonnotable. Might work as a small bit of text on some other article, but don't need to merge to do that. DreamGuy 09:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per above Tim.bounceback(review me! | talk | contribs | ubxen) 17:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Transwiki? When I read WP:MUSIC, the third paragraph is "Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. These are merely rules of thumb used by some editors when deciding whether or not to keep an article that is on articles for deletion." I'd suggest that this is one of those times when the rules of thumb aren't applicable. This isn't about whether or not The Edge of Night was a hit song or that the source for its existence isn't verifiable. The song comes at a dramatically important moment in the film (read:notable), by a major if-not-main character (read:notable), yet the information in the article can't readily be condensed into the film article. Potentially shooting myself in the foot, I'd say that this is a perfect case of Pokemon test. More charitably, Wikipedia isn't a paper encyclopedia. If it's only Keep or Delete, I'd choose Keep. All that said, Wikia does have a LOTR portal, with an article on A Walking Song ([7]). That article does mention briefly the connection to The Edge of Night. Perhaps this article should be moved over there with appropriate links from that article and Pippin's. 74.134.59.45 17:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I've started a draft on a rewrite focusing on the source on the article's Talk page. Uthanc 18:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Note: the page under discussion was extensively rewritten and moved after the comments above. Carcharoth 16:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep (as overhauler) as the article is now focused on the original poem. Lots of references. (It's now A Walking Song. Move this page?) Uthanc 06:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - there are problems with sourcing independent secondary references, but that is a problem to be discussed on the article's talk page, not by deletion. Carcharoth 16:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - moving the page during an AfD may not have been the right course of action (I can't remember what the guidelines say), but it has clearly illustrated the right course of action for the topic, which is now subsumed inside a larger article. Carcharoth 16:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - nice work on the restructuring. The page move was fine but the AfD should stay under its original name. TerriersFan 16:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment as original nominator, I have no problem with keeping the new version of this article, provided that "lots" of references is traded for "appropriate" references; a.k.a. no Geocities sites, for the love of Mithril! María (habla conmigo) 17:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Removed those Geocities sites, replaced with the soundtrack itself (liner notes). Uthanc 18:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Worthy of an article, god knows there's plenty of other just as notable articles that are allowed to stay. Its famous in its own right, it stands as an extension of Tolkiens other work, its very nice to hear in the movie version. It deserves to stay. Dafing 04:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep A song that is played in an Academy Award winning film should be considered notable. Also, sufficient reliable sources have been added to the page.--Kylohk 09:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.