Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Team Final Boss

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Redirect/Merge to Major League Gaming. For all the vociferousness of the comments, I am unimpressed with the quality of sources to back them up, and especially with the attempts to sell press releases, blog posts, and interested (i.e., not independent) media as reliable sources. So the threshold primary subject of multiple independent sources has not been met. On the other hand, the scraps of acceptable material, especially the Reuters article, show that coverage of the team is acceptable within the right context, in this case the main MLG article (which is also how it is covered in that article). I expect that the exposure of the team will increase, so in due time with more reliable sources it can be spun out, but poorly sourced articles like this one fail the core policies of Wikipedia. I'm redirecting because the team is already covered and I don't see much in terms of sourced material that can be merged, but if anyone has better material than urbandictionary to source the claims, the edit history is still available. ~ trialsanderrors 08:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Team Final Boss

Team Final Boss (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is a team to an insignificant gaming league called Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 22:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete fails WP:BIO - all of these (individuals and groups) need to disappear. SkierRMH,22:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - As per nom --Bryson 22:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - As per the Team Carbon nomination. This professional esports team has had $1million+ contracts, as cover by Reuters, Gamespot, GamaSutra and amped. - hahnchen 01:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Just because an item makes it into Reuters doesn't mean that it's notable. Marketting does play a role in what gets reported in the media. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 02:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Yeah, I'm sure it does. However, the numbers involved back this up, numbers and press you'd be very hard pressed to find in the entire list of webcomics. - hahnchen 02:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep- do not snipe! The Halo 2 team. Incredibly notable, as noted in the links provided by Hahnchen above. -- Kicking222 01:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep a major team in the top-level competition of video gaming competition, and the Reuters article provides independent verification.-- danntm T C 03:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep As per the arguments for notability I've already made for all its members. Just to make the team's notability more obvious, I'll add the prerequisite list 'o links (bear in mind I edit from a 56k connection, so all this link looking up for all these articles has taken me a lot of time)

    1up article on their 1 mil contract [1], Team XBox article on the same huge contract [2], synopsis of one of their battles with Carbon [3], GotFrag news article [4], GotFrag article on Final Boss's formation [5], multiple Yahoo news articles [6] [7]

    I think their notability is well proven between here and the AfD's for its members. J0lt C0la 05:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep per above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 05:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep I don't know if I should laugh or cry about Wikipedia AfD's, this is as notable as can be in the gaming industry, not to mention Internet culture in general. Tarinth 17:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Edison 18:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
  • Delete Article lacks information from reliable sources in order to pass WP:BIO. Only featured in pulp entertainment press and business press, not in electronic sports press. Notability is also in question. The team has not appeared in any major international competitions. MLG achievements are slightly notable, but not major enough in order to have an article. Notice in the Major League Gaming article should suffice. Notable results mentioned in the article (WCG and CPL wins in 2005) belong to Team 3D and should definitely be removed from this article. -- DJiTH 23:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment Actually, the fact that it appears in the media outside electronic sports press probably makes them more notable, rather than less. --Habap 23:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment Not in these cases. The field we are talking about is relatively young and general media have shown no effort whatsoever to inform themselves well regarding the field. Professional gaming is a buzz phrase right now, and whoever shouts loudest (or whoever gets the biggest investment to put into a communications department) "wins" the media attention. This is exactly the case with these MLG related articles. I think we should be weary regarding "bought" media attention. Nonetheless, the point was that they were hardly mentioned by electronic sports media. Eg, the media specialized in the field has deemed them hardly notable. -- DJiTH 23:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate your work on e-sports in general, but I am seeing a major anti-MLG bias in all your 'delete' votes. I feel that I have gone above and beyond in proving notability in all these AfD's, and that you are against the articles merely because they are members of MLG rather than some other league. J0lt C0la 00:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
But is notability based on whether something is discussed by the experts in the field or if it is known by the average Joe? Far fewer people have heard of eSports than happen to click across USA Network while surfing cable. I'm still up in the air about the article since the original quality of the writing obscured whether it might be notable. I think our criteria in evaluating some of the stars of eSports (Ksharp and HeatoN) was whether they could make a living doing it. If these kids on Final Boss get paid $60,000 a year, I think they pass that criteria. They may not have been at the top of their profession for 5 years, but it sounds like they have been for 2-3 years. --Habap 18:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep This would be the Team 3d of console gaming. Djith it is strange that you claim EG hardly finds them notable when they "were" Team 3D. I would need to see citations for you claim (or maybe that was your opinion?). The fact that non-gaming industries find them notable only makes your argument seemingly more bias and anti-MLG. Your claim that this industry is based on who is willing to push more money out differs from other industries in what way? Of course all of that is irrelavent to the fact that media attention paid for or not is a guideline for notablility. The more media attention the more notable (at least in the case of the current entertainment industry). Valoem talk 06:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There are in fact some guidelines regarding the reliability of sources; WP:RS. Also take a look at WP:V#SELF. With these, you will have to come to the conclusion that the show on USA Network does not pass. Regarding Team 3D, 3D is a major e-Sports club, that in the past, had players that now play for MLG Team Final Boss under contract. However, Team 3D is much broader and is mostly focussed around their Counter-Strike squad. For the results of the Counter-Strike squad alone, it would be notable. For the results of the former HALO squad alone, it may not be. Regarding the accomplishments now listed at Team Final Boss, it would be highly dubious to take achievements players had at one club to a new club. For instance, if the entire squad of FC Barcelona would move to Ajax Amsterdam, would Ajax have won the UEFA Champions League in 2006? Of course not. -- DJiTH 14:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.