Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tantra massage
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Delete. Requests to provide reliable third-party sources on the topic (rather than just self-interested first-party sources) have not been answered. The article has been edited during the run of this AfD, but the main problem persists. ~ trialsanderrors 08:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tantra massage
I'm concerned that this article somewhat reads as an advert for the "Tantric Massage Association", but moreso that the references don't appear to be reliable sources. The book appears to be self-published (or perhaps a vanity publisher?). I'm not dead set on deletion, but I wanted to get more eyes on it after it came to my attention from an edit war.-- Syrthiss 22:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Keep- I think an association of practitioners is a valid source. However, it appears that who created the technique is disputed. If the dispute has been published in a reliable source, I have no objection to the dispute being included. However, those disputing the citable facts don't seem to have reliable sources. Frater Xyzzy 22:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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- As I know there is nothing like a licensed association in Germany and Switzerland. Every group of interested people can form an association, and there are a lot of associations in Germany and Switzerland... See also the entry in the German Wikipedia Verband (Recht) --Edi Goetschel 22:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Merge to Erotic massage according to the book Essence of Tantric Sexuality listed as a reference for the article, there is no such thing as Tantric massage, it is a misnomer, as no massage techniques were included in the Tantras. It is simply a term misused by some massage practitioners as a synonym for Erotic massage. Thus it should be a section of that article and this title should redirect there. Frater Xyzzy 23:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I can agree to this. --Edi Goetschel 23:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
DeleteYou are right, Syrthis. And there is not only this article, there is also one about the Tantric Massage Association. ;-) The topic was discussed twice in the German Wikipedia and the article was deleted twice. There are no reliable sources that Andro invented the so called Tantramassage (except the website of his own Association, which represents a minority of practitioners in Germany and Switzerland). The mentioned book from Stubbs exists (it has more to to with erotic massage than any sort of Tantrism) and proves that the terme was used years before Andro used it (there are several editions from several publishers). --Edi Goetschel 22:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)- If you can find a source that docuements the history of the use of the term, you can use and cite it. You just can't infer from book publication dates, etc. Also, note that the article is titled "Tantra massage" not "Tantric massage". Is there a difference as Hanuman Das suggests below? Is "tantra massage" simply a well-defined and possibly trademarked form of "tantric massage"? If so, both TMA and you could be right, "tantric massage" existed and was refined into official "tantra massage" by the German dude. Still you need to docuement the respective dates from reliable source to make any statement about primacy. Frater Xyzzy 22:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Tantra and Tantric are one in the same. The term 'Tantra' is a noun, whereas 'Tantric' is an adjective. The correct term for a massage based on the practice of tantra would be a "Tantric Massage" Again, any first year student of tantra would know this. The fact that you people are discussing issues such as this is quite telling. Please, if you don;t know anything about tantra, move on to another subject. - Etheric One
- If you can find a source that docuements the history of the use of the term, you can use and cite it. You just can't infer from book publication dates, etc. Also, note that the article is titled "Tantra massage" not "Tantric massage". Is there a difference as Hanuman Das suggests below? Is "tantra massage" simply a well-defined and possibly trademarked form of "tantric massage"? If so, both TMA and you could be right, "tantric massage" existed and was refined into official "tantra massage" by the German dude. Still you need to docuement the respective dates from reliable source to make any statement about primacy. Frater Xyzzy 22:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Merge to Erotic massage per Xyxxy. —Hanuman Das 05:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Keep but move to Tantric massage. The term "tantra massage" or "tantramassage" seems to possibly be a trade or service mark of a more general "tantric massage". Hanuman Das 22:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC) - Delete This article is consistently changed by 'Hanuman Das', an obvious agent of Andro and his association. Apparently, the same thing was happening in the German edition. The notion that Andro invented this modality is preposterous! It's unfortunate, really ... to have someone who's profile appears to convey knowledge on the subject be an obvious agent of misguidance by those of us who truly do have knowledge on the subject.- Etheric One —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.123.131.226 (talk • contribs) — 70.123.131.226 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Please observe WP:CIVIL. As I said on the talk page, I don't give a crap about Andro, only that the material in the article was cited, which you never bothered to take the time to understand. You, however, are a hypocrite, and have been attempting to use the article to promote your massage studio in Austin while simultaneously complaining about Andro's "marketing". The one thing I can discern from this is that he's a much smarter man than you, with better marketing savvy! —Hanuman Das 05:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Those of us who have studied tantra certainly understand that Andro's organization is a front for marketing. For goodness sakes, take one of Daniel Odier's workshops, or read his books. I recommend "Tantric Quest". It'll put a perspective on the matter. In the book, he writes about performing tantic massage with his master back in the 1950's. What is amazing to me is that any novice in tantra clearly understands Andro had nothing to do with "inventing" the tantric massage modality. I mean, please ... that is preposterous and you know it. And, if not, you better go write someting about something you do know and leave this subject to others who have studied tantra.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.123.131.226 (talk) 14:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC).
- Then why don't you add and cite the information. I can only add the information I have access to. I'm not going to buy any books. The issue here is that you refused to cite your sources for the information that you added, therefore that information had to be removed according to WIkipedia policy. Your laziness in learning how to write an article according to Wikipedia policy is not my problem - it is yours. —Hanuman Das 15:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Hanuman, the (English) internet is not the only source for knowledge! You do not have to buy any books, you can go to a library and lend them... But you have to know the "state of the art". Your statement ("I can only add the information I have access to.") is laziness and not according to Wikipedia policy. This is really your problem, not the problem of Etheric One or my problem. --Edi Goetschel 15:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- No, I repeatedly asked "Etheric One" to provide his sources. It's on the talk page. I was and am happy to integrate cited information into the article. I came across a completely uncited article in violation of policy and did my best to fix it immediately based on the resources I have available. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, and I do not have to do all the work on the article. If I point out Wikipedia's verfiability policy and other users refuse to follow it, their work may be removed. Period. —Hanuman Das 16:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- As you said Wikipedia is a collaborative work. So please accept or respect also other sources than the ones you like. Wikipedia has nothing to do with personel preferences. We cited other sources. The sources are not the problem, you are the problem. EOD. --Edi Goetschel 17:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- No, I repeatedly asked "Etheric One" to provide his sources. It's on the talk page. I was and am happy to integrate cited information into the article. I came across a completely uncited article in violation of policy and did my best to fix it immediately based on the resources I have available. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, and I do not have to do all the work on the article. If I point out Wikipedia's verfiability policy and other users refuse to follow it, their work may be removed. Period. —Hanuman Das 16:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Hanuman, the (English) internet is not the only source for knowledge! You do not have to buy any books, you can go to a library and lend them... But you have to know the "state of the art". Your statement ("I can only add the information I have access to.") is laziness and not according to Wikipedia policy. This is really your problem, not the problem of Etheric One or my problem. --Edi Goetschel 15:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Then why don't you add and cite the information. I can only add the information I have access to. I'm not going to buy any books. The issue here is that you refused to cite your sources for the information that you added, therefore that information had to be removed according to WIkipedia policy. Your laziness in learning how to write an article according to Wikipedia policy is not my problem - it is yours. —Hanuman Das 15:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Those of us who have studied tantra certainly understand that Andro's organization is a front for marketing. For goodness sakes, take one of Daniel Odier's workshops, or read his books. I recommend "Tantric Quest". It'll put a perspective on the matter. In the book, he writes about performing tantic massage with his master back in the 1950's. What is amazing to me is that any novice in tantra clearly understands Andro had nothing to do with "inventing" the tantric massage modality. I mean, please ... that is preposterous and you know it. And, if not, you better go write someting about something you do know and leave this subject to others who have studied tantra.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.123.131.226 (talk) 14:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC).
- Please observe WP:CIVIL. As I said on the talk page, I don't give a crap about Andro, only that the material in the article was cited, which you never bothered to take the time to understand. You, however, are a hypocrite, and have been attempting to use the article to promote your massage studio in Austin while simultaneously complaining about Andro's "marketing". The one thing I can discern from this is that he's a much smarter man than you, with better marketing savvy! —Hanuman Das 05:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Comment - about Edi Goetschel and his personal war against Tantra Massage:
- I want to inform you about the person Edi Goetschel. For some reason he is very much against Tantra Massage and tries to make it miserabel whereever he can. It was mainly the work of Edi Goetschel to destroy the German Articel with similiar arguments like he uses here.
- There is a growing scene of people who work with Tantra Massage in Germany and Switzerland. These people use the massage concept of Andro, who is a very experienced Tantra and Massage teacher - he was the first person who used this "Tantra Massage Concept" - not only the term "Tantra Massage" but a comlete concept for a full body massage.
- Out of his students developed some very motivated practitioners who made his work more and more popular.
- Tantramassage practitioners do not want to be mixed up with prostitutes!
- The Original Tantramassage in the style of Andro has a very clear structure and clear borders, sexual exchange is not allowed.
- It is not right to merge this articel with Erotic massage because Erotic massage is not specified and can be anything.
- By the way there are about 300 people in Germany working with Tantra Massage (Andro's style) most of them work together in massage instituts and most of these instituts are members of the Tantra Massage Association.
- --Kaukaukau 20:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Kaukaukau, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a messageboard for your personal opinion about other persons! If there are any sources, that proof that Andro is the inventor of the tantric massage, I will accept it. Till now he is only the inventor of the "Original Tantramassage" (as a brand), but not at all of the so called Tantramassage. Perhaps you know his publication about the concept you mentioned. Its title is Berühre mich. Anregungen für erotische Massagen (tranlated: Touch me. Inspirations for erotic massages). So why do you pretend Andros massage has nothing to do with erotic massage? Finally is not true that most of the "institutes" are member of the Association. Most practioners are not! Only 13 massage parlors in Germany and one person in Switzerland are affiliated to the Association. --Edi Goetschel 00:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- Delete due to lack of multiple independent and reliable sources. Edison 00:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Keep, this is real subject area but of course the article could do with a fair bit of improvement. Mathmo Talk 06:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- Delete for a practice allegedly "over 5,000 years old" there sure aren't many verifiable sources for this. - WeniWidiWiki 06:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- there is nothing too strange about that, a lot of thousands of years old practices (or so they are claimed) coming from the asian region will have little references to them in the western world. Mathmo Talk 16:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- Keep it is a real subject --Kaukaukau 19:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC) — Kaukaukau (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Weak delete. Very thin on reliable sources. For what it's worth, I'm Swiss and haven't heard of this technique or any such association. Sandstein 21:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
