Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TDVision

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus. This was a difficult closure, because there was a clear majority to Delete, and several of the Keep !voters had COI issues (or may have been canvassed off-wiki, in some cases) and did not cite valid arguments. However, established users Fosnez and Jreferee provided valid sources to demonstrate notability, and the article is now in a much better state than it was at the start of the AfD; I felt this should be taken into account in the closure. WaltonOne 14:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TDVision

TDVision (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Article that essentially reads like a corporate puff piece. Previously speedied for failure to cite any sources and even worse promotional content. Now cites to a Chicago Tribune article, but the article is one of those semi-PR pieces ("Hey, look at all these neat new products") and I don't think it establishes this company's notability per WP:CORP. NawlinWiki 02:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep - I am the primary author of this article. The Tribune article was written by a technology staff writer and the opinions contained are that of the Tribune reporter. The article clearly establishes notability as per WP:CORP as a unique technology. Let's give some time for the stereo 3D user community to edit and show consensus on TDVision which is a major player in this market. Also consider eMagin with the Z800_3DVisor and headplay are stereo companies that have articles though they significantly differ from TDVision 3dtech 03:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC) Please see today's article on Display Daily about sensio with mention of TDVision http://displaydaily.com/2007/09/05/sensio-squeezes-3d-into-the-existing-video-system/ 3dtech 03:17,

6 September 2007 (UTC)— 3dtech (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Delete - Not notable. The author of the article has obvious COI issues as well. Into The Fray T/C 03:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. If the market has yet to come to a consensus to make the technology a player, then it's not notable. Smashville 03:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • The market has already come to a consensus. The article should not be deleted to give other people than me the primary author a chance to edit the article, provide citations and clearly prove notability. 3dtech 03:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Either it's notable or it's not. We shouldn't "save" an article so we can make it notable eventually. Smashville 04:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - I am the CEO and President of TDVision. It may obviously seem to be a COI, but please, let me explain: The only reason why all the other 3D technologies have not proliferated is because of their lack of compatibility with existing 2D infrastructures. Before 2006, all the efforts towards 3D were just simulations and optically based pseudo stereoscopic technologies by alternating, filtering, polarizing and splitting the image source. Since 2006, TDVision has redefined 3D and is being adopted by several military, aerospace and medical institutions because it has achieved the true compatibility backwards, true emulation and true portability at High Definition rates, there is no other 3D technology offering the same characteristics and this is a radical breakthrough. All those companies prefer TDVision over other 3D technologies because of all the mentioned characteristics. TDVision, by definition, is a completely new 3D platform and this single statement fulfills the requirements of any informative public document. The gamut of products makes the architecture, the hardware and software work together to provide the user a completely new way to perceive 3D digital images and 3D environments. TDVision is not only a display company, is a completely new approach to 3D imaging designed from ground up to solve all the existing problems. It is not corporate babble, it's a fact, it's on the patents, it's on Google, its on the Chicago tribune reviews made by industry analysts, it's on blogs by persons who know the matter and should not be deleted. Instead of marking it for deletion I encourage you to please provide some orientation on how to create a proper wiki document (we have read all the guidelines). Other 3D companies are practically promoting their displays, and that's all they are, a display company. We are not just another display company, and we want to share this definition with the public, people from all over the world will be able to verify this information and make comments to it, but it won't happen if you just vote to delete it. Thanks. TDVSystems 04:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)— TDVSystems (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete - since User:TDVSystems has practically admitted in the spiel above that he's trying to use Wikipedia as a promotional platform. Gatoclass 05:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Take a look at the article. User:TDVSystems is not an editor of this article. Any person wanting to learn about head mounted displays, the use of LCOS, and 3D stereo standards would be missing out if this article was deleted. TDVision is recognized as unique and highly notable by the US Display Consortium as well as other notable promoters of stereo systems. 3dtech 05:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)— 3dtech (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
      • The CEO describes TDVision as "a completely new 3D platform" which indicates to me that it is yet to actually establish itself in the marketplace. If it had established itself, I doubt the company's CEO would be feeling a need to drop into Wikipedia to promote the product. And if it is yet to establish itself, how can it be called notable? As for its alleged innovative qualities, every other business out there is flogging something it alleges to be groundbreaking or innovative in some way or another. And as for people "missing out" if this article is deleted, if someone wants to know about TDVision, they can do a google search and check out the company's own website, they don't need to read the same spiel on Wiki. Gatoclass 06:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Though "completely new 3D platform" may indicate to you that TDVision has yet to establish itself in the marketplace, this is not so. TDVision has been around since 2004. This is a long time when talking about the industry TDVision is in. Anybody could also do a google search on any topic in wikipedia though many prefer to use this wiki to get information. 3dtech 23:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. I find the article uninformative about either the company or the technology. The CEO's statement above was far more informative and interesting (but clearly COI). An article about 3D display technology would be more useful than this, and in such an article TDVision deserves a mention, but I am not convinced it deserves its own article. Promotional articles of other companies should also be deleted; the fact that they exist is not a reason to keep this article. As to the CEO's final statement "we want to share this with the public" -- Wikipedia is not the venue for that purpose. You, Mr CEO, are free to put the information and a discussion forum on your own web site. Go and do that. -Amatulic 05:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Again it should be noted that User:TDVSystems is not the author of this article. This article does not read like a promotional article. It is an informative article. The article mentioned the unique attributes of TDVision systems which is useful and merits its own article. TDVision Systems are different than other 3D display systems. There are now multiple notable citations in the article. 3dtech 05:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC) — 3dtech (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
      • Non sequitur. Nowhere did I state that TDVision wrote the article. Furthermore, it is far from an informative article; as I wrote earlier, I learned more about the technology from TDVision's statement above than from the article itself. I repeat, Wikipedia is not the venue to showcase this technology. If anything, it deserves a mention in an article about 3D display systems, along with all the references. I still don't see a compelling reason to give this company its own article, especially for the purpose TDVision described (share with the public, etc.).
        • TDVision Systems is not a display system only. Take a look at the article. TDVision Systems' TDVisor is not even a head_mounted_display since it is not mounted on the head. More reasonably it should be called a personal viewer. There are compelling reasons why TDVision deserves it's own article. These include the fact that TDVision is a unique system and technology, substantially different than other 3D display technologies and techniques and is notable in its own field as well as notable worldwide.

3dtech 02:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


  • Keep The organisation is notable per non-trivial coverage in reliable sources. However, the article is written as an advertisement. This does not mean it should be deleted - it is simply in need for WP:RESCUE. User:Krator (t c) 08:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete with the possibility of starting over when we have more notability, better sourcing, and something that sounds less like an ad. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
      • The above requirements have been fulfilled. Can you revisit this?

3dtech 05:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    • Comment: Might I point out WP:USERNAME policy while I'm here? Particularly the part about promotional usernames. shoy 15:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Seeing the words "player" and "market" in close proximity always reminds me of those emails recommending purchase of a certain junk stock before its imminent rise in value (presumably this will occur when you can actually order the product).It seems from the sources quoted that TDVision has the potential to become very notable - if it could just gain some public recognition. I suspect that this article is an attempt to gain precisely that. Wikipedia is not here to promote someone else's new product, no matter how innovative and exciting it may be. We're here to document the excitement - but that seems to be rather thin on the ground right now. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 17:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • The above commenter does not like the combination of player and market. These are not bad words. Users can order the product currently. That is not the meter of notability. This company is notable because they are taking an approach never done before in the field of stereo 3D and is recognized by notable organizations around the world. Many articles on wikipedia start out on "thin ground" let's keep this article and let it's style improve. 3dtech 23:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
      • I was not criticising the product, or the article. I was stating my opinion that notability has not been demonstrated, and that the article seeks to create, rather than document, recognition of the product. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 21:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, if you are correct that this product is not even on the market yet (as evidenced by the "pre-orders" page), it would seem absurd to claim the product could in any way be notable. Gatoclass 03:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment:::The product is on the market and can be purchased in any amounts at any time. A pre-order can be just that. A form you fill out before you order in order to receive a quote.
  • Delete. Advertising, non-notable company. Keb25 22:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • The previous comment is not substantiated. This article is not advertising. 3dtech 23:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
      • So you say. If it looks like advertising to one editor, he can express that view. I have to say the article looks promotional to me, even if you, as the author, didn't intend it as such. The fact that you seem to have a single-purpose account does make other editors suspect a possible conflict of interest, however. -Amatulic 00:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
      • What is it that looks promotional to you? I will remove it immediately. I have one expertise, that's stereo 3D hmd sets. That's why only comment on that category. Let's work together to make this article conform to standards. Many articles in wikipedia may start out in a bad shape but let's not not crush it in its infancy.

3dtech 00:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep - I am an analyst for WTRS and did a podcast for TDVision at CES. This company and more importantly the technology is not only valuable but important information to keep available. The original post is from an authentic article so this seems to be a valid contribution. My understanding is TDVision offers a new digital infrastructure that enables true 3D immersion across platforms in a portable form factor for multiple applications. AND it doesn’t fool your brain into thinking it is 3D, it is true 3D. And one can simultaneously switch from 3D to 2D on the same screen, no special equipment... so I say keep this information available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jennmmca2 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC) — Jenmmca2 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Comment. It seems that all of the keep arguments except for one have some serious WP:COI issues. Smashville 13:10, 7 Septe.mber 2007 (UTC)
  • KeepStrong Keep article seems to have sources now and is more NPoV (still needs work though) - Fosnez 14:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment I have re-written the article to make it more NPoV. I have also indicated where citations are required. Fosnez 10:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment I have changed my vote to strong keep as the article now satisfies the citation requirements. Fosnez 13:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Mexico-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 00:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak delete, Google News archive results in a few countries and some searching is enough for me to think the company could be notable, but is probably not yet because their technology hasnt been picked up and used in any large scale. Also this article is primary about the technology rather than the company; information regarding technology belong on topical articles rather than company bios. John Vandenberg 01:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
      • It should be noted that mass adoption of 3D technology has not happened yet as a whole. It is expected to happen and TDVision is notable for assembling all the pieces of technology needed for this. That being said, TDVision adoption rates are considerable and notable.

3dtech 03:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 01:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • weak delete while there is some buzz, I dont' see the company pick an eye of serious analysts in the industry. The available buzz may well be generated by good PR. `'Míkka 21:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment I have added three more external links to serious analysts in the industry and relevant articles asserting high notability. 3dtech 23:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
One of those so-called "references" doesn't load on my PC. Of the other two, one mentions a demonstration of the product being made at a conference, and another is from a corporate website that lists TDVision (amongst a gaggle of other companies) as a "technology partner". As an investor in the stock market, I am only too well aware how utterly worthless many of these "technology partner" agreements turn out to be. So if anything, these purported "references" only strengthen my opinion that this is not a notable product. That may change in time, but it seems very clear this technology is very new and has yet to establish itself in the marketplace as a successful product. Gatoclass 03:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
      • TDVision is integrated into the Northrop Grumman Rainstorm Precision Targeting System. Air Force and Military around the world use this tool. All links in the article load and show on Iceweasel 2.0.0.6 on a standard Debian install. The company was founded in 2001 as per the article. The technology is not brand new. The technology as already established itself in the stereoscopic 3D community as highly notable. It may seem simple but the only way to properly view 3D with no side effects is to emulate the way the human eyes really see instead of simulating a 3D effect. That's the major difference emulation vs. simulation. I am an expert on 3D display technology. All added references are from non-trivial, objective, sources and serve to increase, of course, rather than decrease notability. Let's work together to make the article a success.

3dtech 03:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

TDVision is integrated into the Northrop Grumman Rainstorm Precision Targeting System
Where does it say that? The Rainstorm ref only says TDVision is giving a "demonstration" of its technology. Gatoclass 04:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Please check the link under section 'New Features & Enhancements' "TDVisor support A wearable 3D device called a TDVisor is now a supported stereo viewing device." 3dtech 04:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but just adding "support" for a particular device hardly establishes notability. It just means that Northrop have recognized that some buyers might want to use this device and so they've added support for it. It doesn't demonstrate that anyone has actually chosen the device for use with their system. Gatoclass 04:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

  • We probably won't hear from the military aparatus of various governments on their procurement rates for the TDVisor for use with Rainstorm as that sort of thing is usually a secret. As you said "Northrop have recognized that some buyers might want to use this device and so they've added support for it" This in itself is notable. Could this reference, the fact that the technology is not new, and the complete article rewrite, tag for rescue and multiple citations sway you to a keep User:GatoClass?

3dtech 04:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. Companies often add software support for new technologies because it costs little to do so and is a means of keeping their own product up-to-date. But a lot of this support turns out to be redundant as the supported technology ends up failing in the marketplace. Which for all we know at this stage, may soon be the fate of TDVision. Gatoclass 04:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Catch 22 As TDVision has been established as notable by NGC as a military source. It shouldn't be required to collect disclosures of various military buyers of TDVisor adoption rates. 3dtech 05:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CitiCat ♫ 19:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Per WP:N, WP:COI. Avruch 19:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete From one of the external links: "Will TDVision's technology help 3D video finally take off? It's one of the necessary things needed to move 3D forward, but it's not enough to get us all the way there." And that's a reference supporting notability? That's from CNet.com. I find the notbility totally lacking. A mention in the media is not notability, nor a successful sale. Ilike my spam fried, not posted. MarkBul 20:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Mentioning that TDVision is an important part of moving 3D as a whole forward into mass adoption is highly notable. This article is not spam and should be kept just like headplay and Z800_3DVisor have articles.

3dtech 20:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete It's just an ad for a NN company. Marcus22 20:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
      • The article clearly defines a unique approach to 3D that is notable in and of itself.

3dtech 20:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment I just added another link to a gizmowatch.com piece that was posted 11 hours ago.
      • Comment I added a German article that is translated to English to external links. 3dtech

3dtech 01:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

None of these so-called references establish notability. WP:ORG states that notability cannot be established by "Press releases [or] advertising for the company, corporation, organization, or group". What you have posted here as refs are no more than company press releases and third party coverage of the product at tech shows, which again are venues which clearly fall under the heading of "advertising for the company".
WP:ORG goes on to state that when determining notability of a company, users should take into account "notable and demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education." The "demonstrable effects" of TDVision on any of the fields in question appear to be zero. In which case this article fails WP:N in both letter and spirit. Gatoclass 04:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Demonstration of product capability and the coverage of technology capabilities in any venue do not fall under the category of advertising. Professionals write about what they see in an objective manner based on their knowledge and expertise. These are reliable sources and clearly show notability. If a reviewer thought a product or company was trivial or insignificant they would say so. They have not. The move towards an immersive, portable stereo medium that revisualizes the way society as a whole percieves entertainment, athletics, economics, history, literature, science, and education is highly notable. It can be compared to the development of the color television. It is changing the world and nothing can be the same after. Resistance to change is not the meter of notability.
3dtech 04:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
These are reliable sources and clearly show notability
I disagree. WP:ORG clearly states that notability cannot be established by press releases or advertising. Trade shows are clearly advertising venues, it's the job of trade publications to cover product demonstrations at such shows but such coverage alone cannot be used to establish notability. If that is to be the standard used for notability, then every product displayed at every trade show in history that's been covered by a trade publication would qualify as notabile, which is absurd. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a directory for every product good bad or indifferent that's been demonstrated at a trade show.
    • "Trade shows are clearly advertising venues" I disagree. This is probably not the place to argue what a trade show is and is not. In any event wikipedia explains a Trade_show as "an exhibition organised so that companies in a specific industry can showcase and demonstrate their new products and services." Wikipedia explains Advertising as "paid, one-way communication through a medium in which the sponsor is identified and the message is controlled by the sponsor." Naturally it is evident that this is not the case with TDVision. TDVision did not control what any reporter said. TDVision did not sponsor any of the articles. And trade shows are not there for one-way communication. 3dtech 17:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The WP:ORG guideline suggests that the product should have established a "notable and demonstrable effect...on culture, society, entertainment" etc., which TDVision, a new product which is not even fully available yet, has obviously not had a chance to do. Gatoclass 10:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
      • TDVision is not a single product, it's a set of technology tools, products and systems. They are all available. 3dtech 17:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
And incidentally, what those "reporter[s] said" were not exactly ringing endorsements either. One said TDVision's technology is "not enough" to make 3D video "take off". Another said the technology embodies "the best and worst" of 3D and "made us sick" (ie motion sickness). A third said there was "visible flicker" with the product which the company said it was working on. So even if product reviews from trade shows were to be taken as evidence of notability in themselves - a highly dubious notion - there is nothing exceptional about TDVision's reviews in particular that indicate notability in any case. Gatoclass 05:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment Of course TDVision's technology is "not enough" to make 3D video take off. Content providers are a big part too! The "Made us sick part" was a comment about a virtual roller coaster. The idea being that the experience was so real that the user was sick like on a roller coaster. And it's evident that some people perceive flicker over 85 hertz even. This article and this technology is highly notable and even a cursory glance at the reviews show them to be laudatory. 3dtech 05:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
So where are the content providers? And if there aren't any yet, what does that say about the company's notability? Gatoclass 07:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment I have added five more external links to notable reference to TDVision. I have also noted a citation of another notable and demonstrable effect on history and education. 3dtech 05:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Just a bunch of posts (again often generated from trade show demos) on non-notable blogs and public forums. Gatoclass 10:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm getting really tired of having to refute 3DTech's increasingly lame attempts to justify this article. The current vote is 12 for delete as opposed to 6 for keep, and of those six, three have obvious COI's, two of those three (User:Jennmmca2 and User:TDVSystems) have accumulated exactly one edit apiece on Wikipedia (their vote on this AFD), and the third is a single user account who authored the article in question. Of the three keep votes that are not COI's, at least one is a self-confessed inclusionist (a philosophy which is essentially at odds with Wikipedia policies). If one discounts only the COI's the vote is 4:1 for deletion, even if they are included it's still a two thirds majority. Surely it's time this AFD was closed? Gatoclass 03:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Etiquette should be observed. I created this article in good faith as an expert in 3D Vision systems. This article is very well sourced and provided numerous links of notability. The article has been flagged for rescue, re-written by editors and has a lot more notable links than comparable articles that have less substance. Users that want information on LCOS displays, 3D encoding, stereo virtual worlds, and the only all-digital stereo technology in the world would miss this article. I vote to keep the article.

3dtech 05:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

    • RIGHT! Allow me to pick your post apart with the contempt that it just deserves. Wikipedia is not a Democracy - it may come as a surprise to you, but the number of "votes" mean precisely a tinker's cuss in an AfD. An AfD is about Consensus, and the above comments are not tallied up at the end of the AfD by the Admin. The Afd is read through by the admin and they come to a decision based upon the arguments, this is why we have a list of arguments to avoid and why we have "no consensus" results from AfD. One valid keep comment can overrule 50 invalid delete arguments (as alot of the above are). To paraphrase Jimmy Wales's quote, Wikipedia's goal is to become to sum of all human knowledge. To that end, it is Deletionism rather than Inclusionism, that is against the spirit Wikipedia's goals. Inclusionism may sometimes be in conflict with some of Wikipedia's policies, but thats why we have policy like this. Toyama Maru, Yoshida Maru, Awa Maru, Arisan Maru, Ural Maru (pages you have created) all contain only one reference. Wikipedia:Notability says that articles should have Significant coverage by Reliable Sources, that are Independent of the subject. Should we be nominating your articles for deletion? or Ignore the Rules on this one? Fosnez 07:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Contempt? Naughty boy, breach of WP:CIV.
Those articles I created are only stubs, and they are in a long established pre-existing category, to wit World War II merchant ships of Japan. There are also other refs available, I referred to that one alone because it's the most accessible and the others do not add more information. You might say I had an attack of exclusionism :)
As for my comments about inclusionism - I simply noted in reading the article in question that inclusionism implicitly rejects the WP:N guideline, which would thus seem to render arguments based on inclusionism regarding content disputes, essentially illegitimate.
Not that you based your arguments here on such, but I did think your inclusionist position was worth noting on the grounds that it might reasonably be assumed to influence your position in an AFD debate. Note however that I didn't call for your vote to be ignored on that basis. Given that inclusionism implicitly rejects WP:N however, it certainly seemed a relevant matter to raise.
In regards to consensus v vote, it was my understanding that AFD debates are one of the few venues on Wiki where votes are taken into account, although not solely or exclusively. Anyhow, that was just an expression of my perplexity and frustration that this AFD is still ongoing after what, ten days now? But I'm sure the closing admin will ignore my comments if they are out of line.
As for the arguments themselves, naturally I'm still of the view that the "deletionists" here have the best ones, but basically I wish this page would just go away and stop sucking up my time, because I'd prefer to be spending my Wikitime on something a little more useful. Gatoclass 08:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I spoke a bit harshly, you struck a nerve (that inclusionism is some type of insult). Leaving that behind us, My understanding was that (in a perfect world, with no personal bias) AfDs are read by th admin, the arguments for keep/delete are compared (with comments takin into account) and they make a decision. Fosnez 09:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


This article is in a long established pre-existing category, to wit Stereoscopy. What I don't get is why a million links need to be added to help establish notability even though the first two links were highly notable. We now have loads and we are still debating? Does someone have an agenda? This article is notable! 3dtech 13:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.