Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tōon-ryū

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Yamamoto Ichiro 会話 02:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tōon-ryū

Tōon-ryū (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Sorry, Twinkle exploded on me, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/T%25u014Don-ry%25u016B As posted on that page: "Non notable style, less than 1000 ghits RogueNinjatalk 02:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)"

Apparently User:RogueNinja tried to nominate this for deletion but the nom wasnt finished. Procedural completion. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 02:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keep No reason given for the nomination. "Somebody tried to nominate this" doesn't quite get it, I'm afraid. OK, reason for nomination has been added-- less than 1,000 ghits = non-notable style. I don't know if google hits is an appropriate count of notability on something as specialized as an Okinawan style of karate, particularly if it's a foreign word susceptible of other transliterations. Consider this, which may be a better indicator of notability; in four books on the subject of Okinawan karate, Kyoda Juhatsu and toon-ryu are referred to.

Mandsford (talk) 02:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keep As above, no reason given. It seems to have historical significance and can be expanded upon. Timmeh! 02:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment I have informed the nominator that the nomination wasn't finished. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 02:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
• Keep rare but historically important system. Ref.: The well-respected and carefully reviewed Dragon Times (now Classical Fighting Arts), in Dragon Times #17 [1], [2]. JJL (talk) 03:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment, maybe merge I have originally created the article as a quick stub while researching Higaonna. It was created for the reason mentioned just above by JJL - it's historically notable. However, it is indeed obscure and I certainly don't mind the content of the article being merged somewhere else. Except I can't figure out where - Higaonna's own article? --Cubbi (talk) 06:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment I'm rather suspicious, given the near-complete lack of GHits or GBooks hits at all in Japanese, rather surprising for something invented in Okinawa [3][4]. cab (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

  I compare this to the sinking of SS Kiche Maru, which, although very significant, gets very few ghits. Cab, I'm interested in seeing if you can locate Japanese articles about the sinking of that ship, which happened a few months after the Titanic went down, with a comparable loss of life... sometimes, significance can be judged on whether the article itself asserts notability, and the claim can be verified independently. Mandsford (talk) 12:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

  Significance is properly judged by whether reliable sources have themselves found the topic to be significant enough to write about, and I see a grand total of one: "Dragon Times". As for the Kiche Maru, see the comment I left at Talk:SS Kiche Maru; I was able to find reliable sources which seem to be talking about the same incident, even without knowing the proper Japanese orthography. In the case of Toon-ryu, we do know what the proper Japanese orthography is and it's clear that no one in its native country has bothered writing anything about it, which makes me suspicious of historical significance. cab (talk) 02:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. cab (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Small but historically significant. Second choices would be as a small biography of Kyoda Juhatsu or as a section in Higaonna. jmcw (talk) 09:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is its historical significance? RogueNinja_talk 09:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Kyoda Juhatsu (1887-1968) is historically significant. Karate went through many changes as it was transplanted from Okinawa to Japan. Born in Okinawa, Kyoda Juhatsu was a student of one of the more important Okinawan karateka Higaonna and was licensed by the Japanese Dai Nippon Butoku Kai. Tōon-ryū represents one man's interpretation of these transitions.

Or more simply, he and his style are mentioned in many history books. jmcw (talk) 10:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

And I didnt put him up for deletion. He is notable. This style is not. You even call it: "one man's interpretation of these transitions." That is not a singing endorsement of notability. Give it a brief mention in Juhatsu's article. RogueNinja_talk 10:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

His style has been nominated for deletion without provision for preserving the important information contained in the article. This is always my problem with deletionism vs inclusionism. Couldn't we spend our time on clearer-cut cases of McDojo? Are we going to have to have this discussion on every small Okinawan article?[5] jmcw (talk) 10:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I delete McDojos as I come across them, but WP:OTHER applies here. I am going through the template list, and trying to see which ones belong, and which ones do not. Anyway, Merge or Redirect is a common outcome of AfDs. RogueNinja_talk 10:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Hope this might help. Oda Mari (talk) 14:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.