Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Swing Kids (band)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Mailer Diablo 19:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swing Kids (band)

nn-band, but don't have the courage to speedy it today Adam ^(talk) 03:57, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep The article was written out of consideration for other pages involving Justin Pearson and all other bands he has been in. Swing Kids are somewhat lesser known than his other bands but are more seminal in nature and referenced on many other Wikipedia entries, including the Hardcore Emo genre. What's worse is most of the links incorrectly linked to the Swing Kids movement of nazi-era Germany instead of the band before I wrote this article mere hours ago. It is an incomplete stub and I am still in the process of doing research. The patience and understanding of the Wikipedia admin community would be greatly appreciated here. As far as notability is concerned, the Swing Kids feature members of other notable bands and have toured internationally. Their records were released on an independent label alongside other notable bands.Curtyv 04:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Speedy Keep They are very notable, and all the members have formed other notable bands afterwards. First off Justin Pearson is in that band. If you don't know who he is, well he's also in this band called the The Locust. According to the guidelines found here Wikipedia:Notability (music), this band CANNOT be deleted off of Wikipedia because this group ...

• Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country[1], reported in notable and verifiable sources.
• Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (such as Three One G) (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable).
• Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such.
• Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or the local scene of a city (or both, as in British hip hop); note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.

So based on these grounds, I call for a Speedy Keep - RiseRobotRise 11:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. For one thing, RiseRobotRise may be confused; we're not debating the notability of The Locust, but of Swing Kids. That an unrelated band may register on WP:MUSIC's radar might be interesting but is certainly irrelevant. For another, while this Pearson fellow might have his fans, 280 G-hits isn't a lot, and calling Three One G (run, as it happens, by Pearson himself) one of the "more important indie labels" is an enormous stretch. I'd be interested to see sources for the inference that Pearson is the most prominent emo musician in San Diego. RGTraynor 14:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• Note that in the part of WP:MUSIC (guidelines, not policy saying something "CANNOT be deleted") mentioning "Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable" also says "note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such." Weak delete and redirect to Justin Pearson; and frankly I've never heard of him or The Locust. Barno 18:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, appears to be notable for touring and who members became involved with. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 22:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, meets WP:MUSIC due to an international tour. Also notable for kickstarting Pearson's career. Article should be stubbed as it needs to be verifiably sourced. Wstaffor 01:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, this was such an influential band the members have gone on to do so much: Jose Palafox (of Struggle and Bread and Circuits), went on to be a UC Professor, earn his PhD and lecture on punk rock and the hardcore music scene. Justin Pearson who would release their recordings on his own Three One G record label, is in numerous other bands today along with starting and runing his own business. This was an extremely innovative and influential band.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.91.49.233 (talk • contribs)
• Merge with Pearson and redirect. The band's importance cannot be separated from Pearson's membership, and the Pearson article could do with some actual content. -- GWO

• Response to Merge While Justin Pearson's involvement in Swing Kids was of key importance, a redirect or merge may unfairly eclipse the work of two other important members of Swing Kids. Namely, the late Eric Allen (Unbroken) and Jose Palafox (Bread and Circuits, Struggle). Curtyv 18:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - non-notable band with a member of another band that is barely notable. If the supposedly notable member had their own page, then maybe. --Walter Görlitz 23:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - notable band, band members, influental. Kellen ^T 09:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Rebuttal to Above- Justin Pearson does have his own page on Wikipedia. As far as questioning the notability of his later band, well you may have to refer to this website [1] and this one [2] also proving further notability heres one from VH1[3] and Epitaph Records signed a deal with these guys [4], well if you need to merge it with the other articles, then I guess that’s okay (although I don't feel it would fit in with the other article), but don't attack the notability of other projects he became involved with. I still believe that this article shouldn’t be deleted based upon the WP:MUSIC guidelines. A few users listed above would like to agree with me on that one.RiseRobotRise 00:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Shall I nominate it for db-bio? He's a band-a-holicic? Does it make any of the bands notable? Not really. Now if he was Garcia re-incarnated, maybe. Tell you what. When Justin next plays in Vancouver, BC, drop me a note and I'll go see him. Until then I suggest we keep his bands off Wikipedia. From what I can tell his bands only tour So. Cal. --Walter Görlitz 21:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The Locust has toured internationally (this includes Europe and Asia). Tour dates are not posted on their website currently, but I was able to find the following two links. [5] - Partial tour with Yeah yeah yeahs in several midwest states in 2003. [6] - European tour with Kill Me Tomorrow in 2005. [7] - Brief Bio of The Locust from Gold Standard Labs who released most of their records before signing to Epitaph. Swing Kids tour dates would be tough to reproduce since they broke up about 10 years ago. However, there is video footage of Swing Kids playing in Belgium (to an audience of hundreds no less) on the Three One G DVD which was recently released. If you would like to see it for yourself, you may purchase a copy of the DVD [here]. Either way I do urge you to go see The Locust the next time they play in Vancouver. Curtyv 21:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Curtyv, infact next time they play in Vancouver, BC I'll make sure that I'll be the first one to let you know :P RiseRobotRise 10:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Rebuttal to comments made by user RGTraynor "and calling Three One G (run, as it happens, by Pearson himself) one of the "more important indie labels" is an enormous stretch." untrue, read this article [8] (scroll down until you see Three One G in bold text). Three One G is infact "an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable." (I have more references to prove so) and since Swing Kids are infact on that label, that should give them a status of notability. "That an unrelated band may register on WP:MUSIC's" They are infact related by Justin Pearson. RiseRobotRise 05:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I just read the article. Your rebuttal is seriously that Three One G made a list of the top fifteen indie labels in the city of San Diego? RGTraynor 07:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I think you missed my point. 31G has signed a plethora of notable bands, such as the Moving Units, who have gone on tour with Nine Inch Nails [9] [10], The Locust who also have been signed to Mike Patton's label Ipecac Recordings [11], and Epitaph Records [12], the Ex Models an influential noise band who have gone off on various nation-wide tours [13] [14], and The Blood Brothers who have went on nation-wide tours, most recently went on tour supporting Coheed and Cambria [15] [16] RiseRobotRise 09:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Being a support act to a notable band doesn't make you notable. -- GWO

Being a support act on a national tour fulfills the touring requirement of WP:MUSIC. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 13:12, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Being a support act on a national tour requires proof.

• Did they tour the entire country or just one leg of the national tour? The NIN links above don't mention Swing Kids.
• Did they get billing at the venues?

* Further, I don't think being the support act does qualify under WP:MUSIC. Implicitly, at least, I take the tour qualification to mean you were the main attraction. Back in the 1960s, literally thousands of rightfully-forgotten bands and singers toured the US and UK as bottom-of-the-bill on package tours, often supporting much bigger artists than NiN -- like Little Richard, Chuck Berry or Alma Cogan -- GWO

It seems that the entire Swing Kids entry is related to one member of the band, or am I mistaken? --Walter Görlitz 21:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

No, we we're talking about other bands on 31G, trying to make a point that 31G is a more important indie label. Also if you scroll above, you'll see that more then one member of the band went on to form other projects stated by other user. RiseRobotRise 04:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Seems just notable enough, in any case I suggest giving them the benefit of the doubt. gidonb 00:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep --Terence Ong 08:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deletionists soon screech about it if a band doesnt pass wiki:music as if it were some immutable law of the universe, therefor if a band passes it, and this clearly does through virtue of notable members, the same rule should apply. Jcuk 11:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep. The band has proven some degree of notability by at least being linked around to by all the other NN bands on wiki... Mystache 12:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. The blue links testify to its notability. Fishal 17:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per gidonb. --Lambiam^Talk 20:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Eric Allen, a member of Unbroken (perhaps one of the most important hardcore punk bands of the mid 1990s), was also in Swing Kids. This alone makes the band of high importance.
• Comments: (1) This is a VfD on the defunct band Swing Kids, not on its members nor its members' subsequent bands nor a member's independent record label. We're only considering those to the extent that they bear on the Wikipedia:Notability guideline.

(2) From that guideline: "Many editors also believe that it is (a) fair test of whether a subject has achieved sufficient external notice to ensure that it can be covered from a neutral point of view based on verifiable information from reliable sources, without straying into original research (all of which are formal policies). Failure to meet these criteria does not mean that a subject must not be included; meeting one or more of these criteria does not mean that a subject must be included." An "audience of hundreds no less" in any country doesn't meet the "audience of 5,000" guideline. Show evidence that SK were widely featured as being so innovative and influential, and we'll have reason to keep this article instead of redirecting it to the more-proven-notable topic Justin Pearson. (3) Mystache and Fishal aren't quite correct: The existence of articles on related topics linked to one another doesn't really indicate notability for any of them unless either they've survived AfD, or they contain citations to reliable sources proving notability. A whole bunch of fiction or trivia could be added as a "walled garden" of articles to give WP's credibility; people have tried this. Notable bands/musicians/etc, like notable fiction or religions, can have associated topics that are too minor or just not documented enough to keep as their own article. Some of this information is worth keeping, just in one article instead of five. No change of vote, pending evidence more directly relevant. Barno 23:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.