Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steven Douglas (footballer)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep ck lostsword•T•C 19:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Steven Douglas (footballer)

Steven Douglas (footballer) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

None Notable, unknown, short footballer article with no references. Porterjoh 14:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment If he is playing for Linfield F.C. doesn't that allow him for inclusion under WP:BIO Athlete? Govvy 14:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep The Irish Premier is a professional league isn't it? If so, that makes him notable per WP:Bio. Also according to this, he has played in the Champion's League which is a professional league, therefore making him notable. Dave101→talk  14:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per Dave101: A professional who plays for a team which has taken part in the Champions League. Robotforaday 16:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep If he has played for Linfield then he has played in the top flight of Northern Ireland and is therefore perfectly notable. Though clearly the article needs work doing on it. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 20:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Just to add that I have tidied the article up a bit, added an infobox, and added some detail on him taken from the Linfield FC website. He was listed in the article as being "half Scottish, half Northern Irish, which I took out for now. No place of birth given though. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 20:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm happy with it then, if that's the way it's going to be. Looks better now. Porterjoh 22:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep The league he is playing is a pro league and thus passes WP:BIO even though he doesn't seem to be well known for some outside of Europe.--JForget 00:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete Who told you that this league is professional????????????????? Any sources that is professional????? As I know Northern Ireland is an amature league. I have heard that many times from media that irish competitions are amature. Also in a machine of trivia questions that u play for quiz I remember a question... "Which country with amature league, has a national team with great successes???" and the answer was Ireland (I know we are talking for North Ireland, however keep in mind that the north is even weaker than republic!!!!!!). So of what all of you have said THIS LEAGUE IS NOT AT ALL PROFESSIONAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!--KRBN 18:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment He has played in the UEFA Champions League though, which certainly is a professional league. Dave101→talk  19:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
      • CommentThe Irish Premier League is the top flight in Northern Ireland. And KRBN it is a very sweeping and inaccurate statemtent to say that football in Northern Ireland is, as you put it, "even weaker" than in Ireland. And please do not shout. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 20:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. He has not played in a fully professional league. I remember when a cypriot team played against Linfield in UEFA Cup, it was said by a North Irish coach who has worked both in Cyprus and Northern Ireland, that two players of the Cypriot team are paid the total amount of all the Linfield players. And as a note, Cyprus is considered semi-professional! Also he has not played in UEFA Champions League but two matches in the First Qualifying Round of UEFA Champions League!--KRBN 10:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Yes it may be the first qualifying stage, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a professional league. Dave101→talk  11:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: Actually, KRBN solicited my opinion on this one. So I toodled over to the Irish Premier website, and from there to Linfield's website. Lo and behold, the player profiles, each and every one, references the date they signed their most recent contract as well as their length in years; Douglas' as well: [1]. For my money, it's safe to call a premier national league which signs all of its players to contracts "professional." Frankly, I'd hesitate like crazy to rely on a bar trivia machine or Something I Heard Somewhere as grounds for a "Strong Delete." Do you have any actual documentary evidence for your position, KRBN?  RGTraynor  12:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment About time to challenge that "all professional players should have an article" bit. Why should this player have an article, what can we write besides this from reliable source material? What's here that couldn't be covered at "List of players on X team?" Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Pointing me to an inactive proposal doesn't answer my question. Why should we have an article on this particular player? That doesn't seem to be getting answered here, and "All X are notable" isn't a valid argument, whether that's "all schools" or "all pro athletes." (For a while, "all schools" worked, but it didn't stand up to challenge, and now schools are routinely deleted or merged.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Alright, if you require that it be typed out here instead of reviewing WP:BIO, the relevant passage is: "A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards ... Athletes: Competitors who have played in a fully professional league ..."  RGTraynor  19:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  • That doesn't answer my question, either. If you need it typed out, from the box at the top of WP:BIO: "However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." This, to me, looks like one of those exceptions—there's little to no independent source material available here for an article, so common sense (and WP:V) seem to indicate it shouldn't be an article. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  • CommentWhen you say that, "there's little to no independent source material available here for an article", there is easily enough independent source material available. A brief check found two uefa.com sources plus a number of BBC sources, three of which I have added to the article, one of which mentions how he was part of the Linfield team that last season won the Irish Premier League for a record 47th time. In addition there are plenty of sources about his appearances in the UEFA Cup for Linfield. And a number of other independent sources. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 01:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Perhaps I should say "non-trivial source material", then. The BBC source I see drops his name, it isn't about him. The rest I see are similar, they're about the team, not him. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • CommentOf course they are about the team as most articles on football matches are about the teams. And they certainly aren't trivial sources. And a further search found this Belfast Telegraph ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 02:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Then if the articles we source from are primarily about the team, our article should be about the team, perhaps with a List of players on Some Team and splitoff articles about a player or two who've received sufficient coverage for a full article. (In this case, there is at least one article about him, but we'd still need multiples about him, not that just drop his name.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply: Well, y'know something, overwhelming consensus and precedent holds that any player playing in a fully professional league both passes WP:BIO and qualifies for an article. That you might disagree with that is apparent, but the point at which repeated "But WHY???"s become obstructive has been passed; that's the answer there is, and more probably won't be forthcoming. In any event, there's nothing in policy or guideline requiring an article to be several paragraphs in length. You've been quoted the passage upon which precedent is founded and supported by consensus, and you've been shown the links for talk pages where you can chime in to mold consensus more to your liking.  RGTraynor  04:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. He is a professional footballer playing for a top level club and has played in the UEFA Champions League. --Carioca 03:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Comment: My original message was, for some unknown reason, removed (check here), so, I restored it above. --Carioca 03:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete For what it's worth the IPL is not a professional league and articles on players playing for pro clubs in the Football Conference (of which only about 3 or 4 teams are not professional these days) are routinely deleted on this basis. The Champions League comment is totally irrelevant. Players from clubs in countries like Andorra and the Faroes play in the CL, but it does not make them in any way notable. Number 57 08:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Sorry but the comparison with Andorra and the Faroe Islands just doesn't hold up. Population of Northern Ireland - over 1,700,000 with three main divisions in their football league system. Population of Andorra, just over 70,000. Population of the Faroe Islands under 50,000. The two leagues do not compare to the Irish Premier League at all. The top team in Andorra, FC Andorra, compete in Spanish football as it is of a much higher standard and the Andorran league was only lauunched in 1995 and consists of a total of 8 teams. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 03:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
My point was that using the Champions League as justifcation for this article's notability doesn't hold up given the participation of those countries in it. Anyway, again the IPL is not professional. If this article is kept, all those ones on Grays Athletic players should be too. Number 57 08:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I'll take the assertion on the various team websites that they sign players to contracts as proof of professionalism, thanks. Do you have any documentary evidence that the league is not professional?  RGTraynor  12:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Signing a player on a contract does not make then professional - there are players in the Eastern Counties League on contracts, but they are still semi-pro. Many players in the IPL are described as "semi-professional", as Douglas was in an earlier version of this page and as Steve Collier is here. Linfield is also described as semi-pro here. Number 57 13:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep A player in "nation" top division. At least FIFA ranking of NI not as low as Faroe Islands and Andorra, but no.29, which higher than Bulgaria, Israel, Norway, Republic of Ireland, Slovakia, Finland, Macedonia, Belgium, Austria. Although your can say national team ranking not relevant to national league ranking, but UEFA coefficients also not as low as Faroe Islands and Andorra. Matthew_hk tc 17:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.