Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soviet genocide

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was - no consensus - SimonP 14:18, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet genocide

I've never even heard this term before collectively, the "Soviet genocide", and in any case the whole topic is POV beyond redemption. Write about the Ukraine famine, the deportations, OK, but this collectively lumped together "genocide" is POV silliness. Everyking 19:45, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. The Soviet government tried to wipe out a slew of ethnic groups during and after WWII. What else would you call it? -- BD2412 ^talk 20:00, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
  • There were deportations, you can call them deportations. We don't need a POV "genocide" article. Everyking 20:08, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. For an article in existence since 2002, that's awfully little information, and the information is already in Population transfer in the Soviet Union and other articles. To lump together the Ukraine famine and the ethnic cleansing of Germans and Crimean Tatars while excluding, say, the 1937 purges doesn't make sense, and the correct term is ethnic cleansing rather than genocide anyways, since few of the deported were killed. platypeanArchcow 20:22, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Inherently POV, disputed concept, inherently loaded terminology. Kaibabsquirrel 20:25, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - What's POV about calling a spade a spade? Do we not mention "Nazi genocide" or "Hutu genocide" either because that might be POV? Historical facts are not POV. --FCYTravis 20:40, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
  • It's not POV, it's just plain wrong--these events were not (technically) genocide, and the article lumps together events that have no link except being among the many crimes committed by a single government. platypeanArchcow 02:28, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
• Keep These were attempts at genocide, few people survived internal populations transfers. Ethnic clensing is just a euphamism/political correct term for genocide. These events where the real deal. See also Darfur Klonimus 08:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. By the same reasoning, most states that have been in a major war can be accused of genocide on similar grounds. Making the accusation generally adds nothing to historical knowledge, but does express the user's POV. Imc 21:04, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
• For definition of Genocide [1]. So i'd lean on the Delete side since it's more like platypeanArchcow said ethnic cleansing rather than direct killing of people like done by the nazis. Renaming (Soviet ethnic cleansing) would be an alternative, also the article needs a lot of work. My 2 c. -Feydey 21:13, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per what Kaibabsquirrel said -CunningLinguist 22:54, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
• The Government of the Soviet Union killed more people than the Nazis so Keep. Capitalistroadster 03:09, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Leaving aside the absolute offensive absurdity of the claim, that does nothing to refute the argument that this is inherently POV, not a term in general historical use, and should be deleted. Everyking 04:01, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Even if this is true--it really depends on what you consider "killing"--the Soviets never engaged in genocide, the systematic killing of an ethnic group, unless the Ukraine famine is considered intentional, which is certainly not a universally accepted viewpoint, as the article points out itself. And this fact also doesn't make this article have any single coherent point--see my comments above. There are plenty of good articles that deal with Soviet atrocities, and this isn't one. It would probably make sense to redirect this somewhere, though. platypeanArchcow 05:20, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
    • One of the reasons for soviet population transfers was that they reduced the number of people transfered. Hence you moved the problem somewhere else and had less of it when you were finished. Klonimus 08:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
• Turn into redirect to Population transfer in the Soviet Union - Skysmith 08:31, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
• Redirect and delete, per arguments above. Although despicable, it wasn't genocide per se. Scimitar 14:55, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
• Merge/Redirect Into USSR section of Genocides in history. — RJH 18:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
• Redirect to Population transfer in the Soviet Union - these terrible events were not genocide, a word bandied about too easily these days. carmeld1 23:58, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and expand. There is nothing wrong with the title. JamesBurns
• Keep. Not every bad thing the USSR did was genocide, but there have been lots of credible allegations that genocides were at least attempted. Frjwoolley 18:30, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• keep this topic is very interesting in its self, at least in the way in which the legal definition of Genocide has been manipulated so that it didn't apply to the Soviet killings. For example, killing the kulaks would be included in the intuitive definition, but since they are a specifically targeted class, not a people or religion, doesn't count in the legal definition. Mozzerati 20:57, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.