Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/South Azerbaijan National Liberation Movement

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Absent any sources describing the organization (beyond a stale blog) an actual article is surely an impossibility. Mackensen (talk) 22:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] South Azerbaijan National Liberation Movement

South Azerbaijan National Liberation Movement (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This organization is not notable. A Google search brings up nothing regarding this organization other than the Wikipedia page itself: [1]. It was obviously created to promote this organization and not for the sake of an encyclopedia entry. The User who created this article simply registered for one day to edit the page of the founder of this organization and to create this page and made no edits afterwards: [2], which makes one believe that this User was working on behalf of the organization itself. Again, this article is not note worthy to be on Wikipedia and was simply created for promotional purposes. Azerbaijani 17:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete - As per the above.Azerbaijani 17:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - Page does need major wikification, but a Google search brings up a number of non-Wikipedia/mirror hits[3], many of which seem to indicate that this is a recognised political force in the region (and I assume the number would be far higher if searching in Azeri, Russian or Farsi). Given that this page refers to an illegal political party in Iran, I can perfectly understand the creator's remaining anonymous. - Iridescenti (talk to me!) 19:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Most of those minor hits are Azerbaijani pages. This organization is not notable enough for a Wikipedia article and was obviously created for promotional purposes. Secondly, your comment about Iran is pure speculation and should not influence any vote in anyway. Also, we are all anonymous here on Wikipedia, this user simply created a one day account so he could promote this organization, one which he could possibly be working for. Furthermore, the Iranian government has no way of acting upon any user on Wikipedia in any way.Azerbaijani 21:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, most of the WP users with every POV are anonymous: for example me and Azerbaijani and that user!--Pejman47 21:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete first it seems an aparent copyvio, and every organization considers itself "important". Even if it has only 10 members. You need to support your view, by third party sources. --Pejman47 21:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said, you may search and rescue the article by finding "third-party" sources. --Pejman47 23:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Believe me, I don't care that much about it - IMO as it stands it's a wretched page, I just think it's potentialy salvageable - but it would need someone who speaks the language & understands the region to rescue it. Anyway, it's probably more suitable for Russian Wikipedia. - Iridescenti (talk to me!) 00:08, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that it is impossible to write this article according to Wikipedia standards, as there are no third party reliable sources that discuss this organization. I have never heard of this organization, which leads me to believe this is not as big as the other major one (GAMOH), and is probably a competing organization. Again, this seems like it was created for promotional purposes only. There is nothing on the web to base an article for this organization.Azerbaijani 02:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per norm --Rayis 23:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Given there are two rival organizations, as agreed even by the nominator, they should both have articles. We are not an international tribunal, and the only fair practice here is to be inclusive (and fix up the article--I agree its present state is not exactly reassuring.). DGG 04:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I never said they were two rival organizations, I said that this is probably a less well known organization trying to promote itself. Its not notable at all, do a Google search. Also, I've searched for information on this organization in an effort to re-write the article, but I was not able to find any information, not even from biased websites.Azerbaijani 18:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment I can find plenty of information on this organisation even on a brief Google skim but unfortunately most of it's in Azeri (see this for example) so I can't make any judgement on it. - Iridescenti (talk to me!) 18:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Thats the problem, there are no third party neutral sources to use to create a fair Wikipedia rticle on such a sensitive topic. The article you mentioned is far from neutral, and infact, looks like the organizations own website! Here is the English version: [4] Look at all the propaganda and bias.Azerbaijani 19:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Notable enough. The article should be further improved and expanded. Grandmaster 18:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

How is it notable?Azerbaijani 18:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. There is the english homepage of this movement[5],where you can find any info about it, and also it is mentioned in this openly anti-azerbaijani pamphlet of one pseudo-scholar who accuses everyone from Heydar Aliyev to Brenda Shaffer of panturkism [6].It has a yahoogroup of 687 members[7](the biggest azerbaijani group is 1000 members+ a few, and the most read internet article in azerbaijani is hardly 300-400 readers due to the low internetification) Also wikipedia contains article about its creator Piruz Dilenchi. Elsanaturk 21:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

We cannot use the organizations own website to write a Wikipedia article about it. The group is not notable (outside of Azerbaijani circles) and there are no third party reliable sources to create a Wiki article for such a sensitive topic. I know very well that these same users who are voting keep would never allow an article as sensitive as this to be created with only Iranian sources.Azerbaijani 22:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete This "organization" is nothing but a webpage maintained by fantics. It is not significant enough for an encyclopedic entry. Arash the Bowman 21:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. If the organization does exist and has affiliated publications and television, I don't see why the article should be deleted. Obviously the organization has a certain broad audience, and its worthy of mentioning in encyclopedia. Atabek 23:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Article is in horrible shape and its not notable. Artaxiad 23:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Arash. Hakob 01:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete It's against WP:NOR policy. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 08:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment Please pay attention to South Azerbaijan National Liberation Movement. I'm not an anti-Turk or pan-pharsist but this article is against WP:NOR. I think it should be deleted. Can you improve it by adding some reliable sources? --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 08:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete That is not an existing organization:The only use of this web page and it's name is to provoke political tension for putting pressure on Iranian government. If wiki does not delete the page ,then hundreds of pages may appear in this encyclopedia that are only created in imagination for putting political pressure on the nation-states.AlborzFallah 26 March 2007
• Keep. The page needs major improvement, but it is about a notable organization, and hence should be kept. --adil 17:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - The Users who are voting keep with such reasons as this organization being notable and that the article should be re-written still have not shown in what way this article is notable (again, Google search brings up close to nothing) and what third party reliable sources can be used to even re-write this article (so far, the only source provided as been that of the organizations own website!). There is no basis for this article not to be deleted, as it is not notable, and it is impossible to re-write.Azerbaijani 17:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I don’t think that the info about irredentist movement in Iranian Azerbaijan should be suppressed in Wikipedia. Regardless of what you think about this organization, the reader has a right to know about it. The current state of the article is not a good reason for deletion, and google search is not the only criterion for establishing notability. The info could be available elsewhere. This article should be improved, and not deleted. Grandmaster 19:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
    • So far, no one has brought up anything to show the notability of this organization, nor has anyone brought up a means to re-wrtie this article (i.e third party reliable sources). No one here has brought up any means of fixing this article. This article was created for in order to promote a relatively unknown organization, simple as that, which is against Wikipedia policies.Azerbaijani 19:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - The page needs wikified and other works required by Wikipedia. But it should stay and expanded. google search actually gives some links, unlike the claim of user:Azerbaijani. For example this UN source [8] and here is the blog [9] Since this organization is involved in human rights activity in Iran it is not coincidence that pro-Iranian circles try to suppress information about it. As a relatively young organization its notability perhaps will gain more attention in the future.--Dacy69 19:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment - This is hilarious! You present a blog and say it can be used as a source to write this article? And the article from the UNHCR says nothing about the organization, it mentions it once. How do you expect us to write an article on an organization such as this, when it isnt even notable enough for other third party reliable sources to have already written about it? There is no information that can be found (and I searched) that can be used to write this article. Again, the users voting Keep are obviously not taking into account any of these factors. Furthermore, this users personal attack that says the only reason this article was put up for deletion is because we are part of a "Pro-Iranian circle that tries to suppress information" is ludicrous, as there are many articles that "Pro-Iranian circles" may not like on Wikipedia, such as Human rights in Iran, along with other anti Iranian seperatist and terrorist groups.Azerbaijani 19:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment that is, I think we found at least two non-azerbaijani sources, which mention this group, one is United Nations's UNHCR site[10], and another one is this openly anti-azerbaijani pamphlet of one pseudo-scholar[11].thus, at least we have one third party source(UN) and also one source from opposite direction. so why to delete? this organization is not a hoax.If UN can rely upon them, then why not wikipedia? Elsanaturk 21:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Who are you calling a pseudo scholar? Dr. Kaveh Farrokh is a world renown Iranian historian who gives lectures at many famous universities and published many intellectual articles and books. I have even seen him on the History Channel. Secondly, two sources are not the basis for notability, and thirdly, we still have not seen any sources that we could use to create such a article. This article needs to be deleted, there is no other option, rewriting it is impossible as there are no sources to use.Azerbaijani 22:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment My comments that pro-Iranian circles try to suppress information about this organization is not related to Wikipedia users per se. It is general comment about Iranian government policy and those who supports it. If you take it personally then it is your bussiness. And obviously, even if you, me or someone else don't like article as Human rights in Iran, nothing can be done about that. It is notable fact. Actually, many countries has problem with that, including US and others. Here, in Wikipedia our role - editors - to give as much as possible accurate and verifiable information. Definitely, if such notable organization like UNHCR mentions the organization in question - then it is accurate. And there is a nubmer of links in Azeri language Google about this organization, for example [12], [13], and article in Azeri Wikipeida about it [14]--Dacy69 22:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Like I said before, the UNHCR mentions it once, thats it (further showing that it is not notable organization). And you said it right when you said that our role - editors - to give as much as possible accurate and verifiable information., exactly, by that basis, this article must be deleted, as there are no third party reliable sources that can be used to create such an article. And please, do not use an Azeri Google search to try and show notability, this is English Wikipedia. The article you posted from Azeri Wikipedia is about GAMOH, not this SANLM! Are you trying to trick people now?Azerbaijani 22:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete It is not notable enough and it contains original research. Gol 21:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Let's not promote minor militant/terrorist separatist groups. If the US/Israel pays them to do something maybe they'll become notable. The Behnam 22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete It already has a wiki entry: [[15]]. Why create two!? Looks like a one man organization made for ethnic provocation (dismayed to see it was Baku based). Many false and baseless claims too, like Azerbaijan extends to Khuzestan or Western Azerbaijan which has large number of Kurds is all Azeri or .. etc or Bahmanyar ibn Marzaban who was a Iranian Zoroastrian student of Avicenna predating turkification of the region as a Turkic person(I guess Bahmanyar needs an article)). If this article stays of course all these points should be responded to as well. There are some Iranian based organizations in Iran called "Irani-e-Shomali" (Northern Iran) who also claim the territory of the republic of Azerbaijan. I am wondering what the limits are and if these organizations can get their own wiki article? I do not think think any of these organizations are noticeable enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia. In fact, anyone can create a small one man or few man organizations and then state their political goals. An organization should have at least some weight and be mentioned like the Tamil Tigers or PKK. Also I note that the user who created this article commited a major violation of Wikipedia rule by erasing the delete votes of some users. [16]. I guess that speaks pretty well for the democtratic platform they claim to represent. --alidoostzadeh 23:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh wow, I did not even notice that Delete votes were removed by Aztap (the same person who created this article), which again supports the fact that the intention of this article was to promote this very small and unknown organization, rather than to create a beneficial article for Wikipedia.Azerbaijani 00:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Given that the fake ethnic map that has many non-Azeri groups deleted and marked as Azerbaijani, it is consistent. --alidoostzadeh 00:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• comment Google search becomes more relevant when the right keywords are entered, such as the URL of their website or proper name, including in Azerbaijani language. The name itself is too long for most Western or otherwise journalists to reproduce, so most would go by an abbriviation or just the name of the leader or main spokesman of the organization. None of the organizations are really Baku-based (Chehregani can't even visit Azerbaijan, or Turkey, without being asked to leave), but they have of course chapters there, with regular press contact. --adil 05:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and improve. SANAM seems to be mentioned on the UNPO website [17], so my guess is it's notable enough. However the article needs to be reorganized big time. Parishan 06:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

it has a entry already: [[18]]. --alidoostzadeh 11:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and improve per Parishan.. Baristarim 08:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and improve per Parishan&Baris.. Makalp^TC 09:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment - this article's sister article, Piruz_Dilenchi was incorrectly tagged for speedy delete; I've removed the speedy tag and AfD nominated it here. - Iridescenti (talk to me!) 10:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep SANAM (GAMOH http://www.gamoh.org/) and SANLM are different organisations. M. Chohregani is the leader of the first, while Piruz Dilenchi is of the second. --Ulvi I. 13:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and wikifyRaveenS 22:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Iridescenti and Parishan. The article needs wikifications, but there is no reason to delete such an informative article. E104421 13:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Iridescenti. The name is mentioned in a report by the United Nations Refugee Agency UNHCR [19] and also in publications by The Jamestown Foundation [20] and Global Security[21].Heja Helweda 05:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Wikipedia shouldn't be used to promote fringe organizations. --Mardavich 05:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete I live in Irani azerbaijan all my life and never heard of this movement --Jalil Azermehr 08:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Totally rewrite or Delete at this moment it's a mere promotional text without any wikificaion. --Armatura 12:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Not notable, unsourced, original research, possible WP:COI. NikoSilver 12:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as per User:Gol.--Zereshk 12:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete I am wondering why it is not Speedy Deleted. Acoriding to Item 11, Pages which exclusively promote a company, product, group, service, or person and which would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic should be deleted without debate. (Shahingohar 13:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC))
• Delete per nom - POV, unsourced, seems like advocacy, and the list goes on.--Domitius 13:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete. I refuse to get to the substance of the article, since, as it now, it is nothing more than a promotional article, having nothing to do with an encyclopedia. Inacceptable content and format. This is a party declaration! What is it doing here?!--Yannismarou 16:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete. This is nothing more than a fringe political movement run by a handful of people who are not even native Azeris. For the last few months, these individuals have been using the "Youtube.com" self-broadcasting service as a springboard for propagating their political POV's and since being largely banished by Youtube, they are now attempting to leverage Wikipedia.org as their new political tool. I advise all editors to be vigilant -- even after this article is deleted, they will retaliate by vandalizing existing articles as was seen on the Reza Shah article, etc.Mehrshad123 19:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete An organization (or movement as it says in the title) should be notable to have a page in Wikipedia. Has this organization done any notable activity other than lunching a website? Has this group been studied by a notable reference? If yes why it is not reported by any reliable source. Please note that a local newspaper in Baku is not considered reliable. This article seems to be from Self-published sources. Wikipedia should not be abused by unknown groups for obtaining fame.(Arash the Archer 19:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC))
• Rewrite or Delete as per Armatura. Kaveh 21:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Merge to an article on the opposition groups in Iran(if this organization is proved to be notable enough through *reliable sources*). I am not sure how much this organization is notable. I even doubt its popularity among Turks. If it was an organization regarding Kurds, I would have probably gave it a more paused before writing this. --Aminz 07:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, not notable, copy vio, solely for promotional purposes, unencyclopedic, promoting violence. Shervink 11:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and Improve per above.Caglarkoca 11:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per alidoostzadeh, alot of these have been popping up recently... - Fedayee 14:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per alidoostzadeh and Azerbaijani. original research, unencyclopedic, solely for promotional purposes. lol, it sounds like a one-member party. Maybe the leader and the only member of the movement wrote this article.--behmod talk 19:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.