Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sonja Elen Kisa (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was merge/redirect to Toki Pona. -R. fiend 16:22, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sonja Elen Kisa

The last deletion attempt on this article, which can be seen here, had either a 6 out of 13 or 7 out of 14 count for Keep by my account, depending on Ambi's vote, which I assumed to be a delete by defacto. Regardless of Ambi's intentions, this should have been closed as Keep, No Consensus rather than as a Keep, and the ensuing confusion in the conversation has led me to believe that another look at this is needed. Currently No Vote from me. Karmafist 02:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Per Jan's comments below, I'm changing my vote to Merge or Redirect with Toki Pona, she's not notable on her own.
Ultimately, I believed that gaining a clear consensus after the last AfD was the largest issue here, but since that attempt was apparently percieved as a ploy in the continuing Deletionist/Inclusionist nonsense, apparently my original goal is being ignored. Therefore, I've decided to discard that goal and go with my opinion on the article itself rather than the AfD. Karmafist 05:48, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

To avoid misunderstandings, there's one thing I want to make crystal clear: I am not accusing you of any kind of ploys or deletionist nonsense. In fact, it's obvious to me that your intentions are honourable. My earlier remark concerned repeated AFDs against one article in general (an example that still gives me a bitter taste in my mouth is the case of Fyksland, which first survived two VFDs, then it was decided to merge and redirect Fyksian into it, and then it was killed in a third VFD after all). --IJzeren Jan 09:15, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Jan. I'm going to keep my vote, but i'm glad there's no hard feelings. Karmafist 16:54, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

• Comment. In my opinion, an renewed AfD is way over the top if the only purpose is having the conclusion of a previous one reformulated, especially given the fact that the final result would be the same anyway. In your place, I would rather have contacted the administrator in question. --IJzeren Jan 09:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Then we agree to disagree, Jan. I reopened this vote largely because of the ambiguity that was caused by the admin who opened and closed this last time, Ambi. If I asked Ambi, that wouldn't help the other people(the reason how I found out about this article) that were somewhat perplexed at how the last AfD was closed, and she would have to repeat that task several times. That was probably a minor mistake since Ambi has a reputation as a great Wikipedian, so this is just to make sure what consensus is and to absolve her of any future problems from those ambiguities. Karmafist 15:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Abstain. If someone can show that the language created (Toki Pona) has made a few waves than its creator merits ancillary inclusion; disinterested secondary sources rather than blog entries count in this regard. For the moment I don't see anything. Marskell 08:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Weak keep. The notability of Toki Pona is beyond doubt. But does its creator therefore merit an article on her own by definition? Not necessarily, if you ask me. The "notability by proxy" mechanism could work if: a) the article about Toki Pona would get too long, or b) Kisa would be notable for other things as well. Now, I don't think any of those two is the case. Besides, the article in question doesn't add much to the phrase used in Toki Pona (created by the "Canadian translator and linguist Sonja Elen Kisa") anyway. Normally, I would therefore have voted "merge". But the article has already survived an earlier VfD, and I don't think it would be a good idea to constantly re-AfD articles until the deletionists get their way. So "keep". --IJzeren Jan 09:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, the creator of a notable conlang seems notable. — JIP | Talk 11:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete unless someone can provide me evidence that her created language is in use. Right now I don't see any indication that this language is used outside a small group of people on the web. That to me indicated a non-notable language and therefore a non-notable creator.--Isotope23 13:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Either keep or merge with Toki Pona and redirect. -- Mrmooky 14:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, creator of Toki Pona. Kappa 15:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect until she's notable for more than Toki Pona. DenisMoskowitz 15:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Such a minor branch of a subject that it doesn't deserve an article: Merge the useful content into a more comprehensive article [Toki Pona] and redirect --SPUI (talk) 15:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep notable Wikipedian.  Grue  19:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• redirect per SPUI, (note that merge and redirect are distinct I believe). Dottore So 19:57, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Abstain. I'd like to see this article deleted since it has less notability than Tim Shell, in my opinion, but I also think it should be kept, in some way. I'm on the fence. --WikiFanatic^{Talk Contribs 17:47, 13 October 2005 (CDT)}
• Redirect to Toki Pona. No need for merge, since information is already duplicated there. Chick Bowen 22:46, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect, verifiable but not a lot of content. Keeping is okay with me too. JYolkowski // talk 02:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep as per Kappa. ~⌈Markaci⌋ 2005-10-14 T 07:22:01 Z
• Keep as per JIP and others. Hall Monitor 20:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. The conlang does not seem to be notable -- at least its Wikipedia entry does not say how it is. Martg76 07:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oh, Toki Pona ís notable, don't worry about that! See f.ex. this VfD. If the article doesn't make that sufficiently clear, that's a manco of the article, not of the language. Besides, this poll is not about Toki Pona, but about Ms. Kisa. --IJzeren Jan 08:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Redirect to Toki Pona - a sweet language, but noone uses it, and you can't say anything interesting about her other than her founding the language. -DDerby-(talk) 20:56, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.