Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sky Soleil

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was that since the article has been on AFD for the best part of a month and a consensus hasn't formed to delete it, there is clearly no consensus. Stifle (talk) 09:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sky Soleil

Sky Soleil (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

The article fails to meet WP:N for an American film director and as an actor. No reliable sources can be found to demonstrate notability. Possible self-written WP:COI.Torchwood Who? (talk) 00:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for being so thorough. Here are the references.

http://www.digitalvideofestival.com/film.php?id=63

http://us.vdc.imdb.com/title/tt0395987/releaseinfo

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1534043/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.26.92 (talk) 01:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment imdb is not a reliable source and the digital video festival link does not cover this director, it covers one short film and is just a listing that it was in the festival. If there are articles about the director, or a biography of the director written by a third party... maybe an interview in a reputable publication we could include those sources and see notability established.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 01:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment imdb is a reliable source. Well-respected, professional and often cited in WP. IMHO an imdb listing of itself almost confers notability.. Annamonckton (talk) 14:48, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
It says specifically in WP:NOTFILM That imdb is not a reliable source.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 15:05, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Er... no it doesn't. It says "A page in the database does not by itself establish the film's notability." A source being reliable and a source confirming notability are two different things. I'm not claiming imdb confers notability, just that it's pretty reliable. Annamonckton (talk) 16:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Correct, it is not a reliable source to confer notability. The editor is asserting that the listing on IMDB asserts notability and I am commenting to that.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Very Weak Keep Number of minor acting credits. Fails WP:BIO for entertainers, but that standard doesn't seem to be applied consistently, if at all. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
If it is kept it needs to be stripped of anything WP:COI since the article is an autobiography.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 01:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Torchwood Who? (talk) 04:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. No significant roles + no mentions/reviews = non-notable. (Major deduction for quasi-cutesy name.) Clarityfiend (talk) 06:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. I've successfully introduced actor articles on just their imdb profiles. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 13:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete as per Clarityfiend (though I couldn't care less about his name). BWH76 (talk) 15:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. A certain degree of publicity. `'Míkka>t 07:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Where is this publicity? I only see featured extra work on imdb and a short film in a festival.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 11:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Every television credit on IMDB is entered by the Studios ABC NBC CBS FOX etc...In order for a film credit to be listed it has to satisfy IMDB's criteria as either having a theatrical release or a festival release. I think the system of deciding what is "Weak Keep" or "Notable" needs to be overhauled especially in regards to IMDB. There doesn't appear to be an overall consensus on these matters. To say that this actor has only done extra work on IMDB is a flat out misrepresentation of the information listed on IMDB by studios such as FOX, NBC, ABC etc...and it seems that Torchwood is only interested in having actors further along in their careers listed on wikipedia. If that is the overall consensus for other fellow wikipedian mediators so be it. But even George Clooney and other actors started with smaller roles on established TV shows. If those credits are viewed as "Weak Keep" it seems like they are being viewed so on bias not actuality.— 66.214.251.105 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at UTC timestamp [optional] (UTC).

Actually the IMDB information can be entered by anyone. I also contribute to IMDB and there is a simple easy to use form to input new information [1] Also, the information review on IMDB is mostly to make sure that it's not an obvious hoax and to insure the submitter correctly filled out the required form fields. Additionally, the notability guideline includes having been written about by third parties. I don't dispute that this actor has been on the shows they mention, I do, however, assert that their roles have been minor and non-recurring. That is why IMDB is not a notability source. If there was a directory of all ship builders I would expect that every person down the line would be included in it, but I would only consider notable participants as worthy of encyclopedic coverage. On the Clooney analogy, if this actor goes on to do notable work, as Clooney did, he will surely warrant inclusion... but the argument you're proposing asks us to look into the future and back an unproven actor on the basis that other actors started where he is an achieved fame. I can think of few examples of notable professional who started out at the top of their field without paying their dues. I personally feel this article is vanity and little more than a resume of a not-notable actor. The fact that it was written by the subject himself or someone so close that the username is a version of the actor's name clearly shows that this actor is not of a level at which third party coverage is warranted. Also, the actor himself admitted to writing another wiki article about an unreleased short film of his which was subsequently deleted at AfD. This shows a history of WP:COI edits.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 17:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, Torchwoodwho, you have gone on a witchhunt against this actor. Most of the actor listings on wikipdedia are vain. No dispute there. But again, if you are going to police this actor for where he is at in his career to date, than what are you going to do with most of the actor articles listed on wikipedia? They deserve this same scrutiny. You seem hellbent on preventing this actor to do what every other actor on wikipedia is doing. It's all vain. Is George Clooney less vain because he's established. Another analogy if I may...If you were examining an article on the California dogface butterfly and the information provided was factual but not as notable, popular or as dense as the Morpho butterfly would that mean that it is not worthy of being on wikipedia. Again, you "Torchwoodwho" are attempting to be the final word in what is appropriate for wikipedia in regards to actors. Prior to wikipedia you didn't have articles in encyclopedia's dealing with pop culture. Wikipedia changed that for better or for worse. If you are going to police you shouldn't do it from a standpoint of judging vanity. You should do research that is worth citing. I'll repeat your erroneous statement "I only see featured extra work on imdb and a short film in a festival". Where is the research? This is a false misstatement meant to slander this actor and their work to date. I do have a problem with your tactics, your judgments and your lack of research to support your reasons. If you were truly trying to manage this site fairly it would not be from a place of trying to police actors that don't fall under your idea of notable. That is a form of vain glory in and of itself manifested in deletion articles.— 76.213.233.119 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at UTC timestamp [optional] (UTC).

I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm sorry that you think this is a "witch hunt". I apologize for making it known that I feel this is a vanity article, that's an argument to avoid in a deletion discussion and it was inappropriate of me to make that statement.There is the argument of WP:OTHERSTUFF that should also be avoided in this discussion. We're talking about one specific article about one specific actor and we should stay on topic to that. If there are similar articles they may very well undergo this exact process during their life and community consensus will decide if they are kept or deleted. That said, do you have any arguments that relate to how this exact actor is currently sufficiently notable for inclusion? --Torchwood Who? (talk) 02:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Very Weak Keep This person is an extra in some well=known television shows. He even has his own website. However, very few people know him, which makes him not such a well-known person. Brokenspirits (talk) 02:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

How did you come to the conclusion that this person was only an extra Brokenspirits? Where in wikipedia does it say that only "well known actors" confer notabality and get a page on wikipedia? How do you decide what is well known? To simply dismiss this actor as "an extra on some well known shows" is a clear display that you have done nothing to ascertain notability except glance at a site (probably IMDB) and negate the work that he has done. After spending a few minutes searching on line I found several links pertaining to this actor. The TV.com links I've provided below list this actor in the credits of the shows he has listed on wikidpedia. Extras are never listed in the credits of TV shows on TV.com. If they are listed on IMDB they appear to have (uncredited) beside them. This actor does have a couple credits like that but they aren't listed on wikipedia only on IMDB. I provided three TV.com links below. Every one of his credits can be substantiated there. I also found reviews of his stage work which I've included links to. I also took the time to watch his reel on his website. While his roles are small they are not extra roles and he does share scenes and has dialogue with actors Kiefer Sutherland, Sally Field etc...Again he's not the lead in these things but he isn't as several people have been quick to conclude an extra. The problem I see here with the discussions about actors is that non-actors appear to be doing the dissections. To simply snub someone or deem their work "weak keep" because they aren't big names that you recognize is wrong. I feel they should have a place on wikipedia. Dare I say it even extras. Wikipedia has it's own Star Wars wiki where even the smallest detail is listed about the smallest character on some far off remote location. Even if it's complete fiction. Nobody is saying "weak keep". "Get rid of that piece of information." That's what appears to me to be happening with this actor and other actors in general. Because you haven't heard of him or you didn't see the films he's been in because they played at remote festivals across the country or you missed his small role when it was on ABC, FOX, or NBC, it doesn't mean it was insignificant or not noteworthy. I propose having an ACTOR area in wikipedia. Similar to Star Wars. An area that includes even the apparent untouchables "THE EXTRAS". To me it would be cool to see a place where every film detail, no matter how small, was listed, just like that remote character or location in the "Star Wars" universe. For those more experienced on wikipedia how would I go about starting that? Here are the links I mentioned for this actor.

http://www.tv.com/ncis/angel-of-death/episode/1024416/summary.html?tag=ep_list;ep_title;23

http://www.tv.com/criminal-minds/the-tribe/episode/613539/summary.html?tag=ep_list;ep_title;15

http://www.tv.com/24/day-5-400-pm---500-pm/episode/638969/summary.html?tag=ep_list;ep_title;9

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200110/msg00420.html

http://www.spock.com/q/%22american-conservatory-theater%22

http://www.badlit.com/?cat=11&paged=2

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/artsculture/reclaiming__of_the_shrew/Content?oid=283770 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.251.105 (talk)

I appreciate the effort you are making, some of your arguments don't work in regard to wikipedia. For instance, I believe you are talking about wookiepedia which is a wiki run on wikia and not in any way related to the wikipedia project. In fact you will find on-going debates right here at AfD about the notability of fictional characters. Currently there is no clear-cut consensus on the matter. If you would like to start an all actor wiki just visit wikia and sign up for an account. Now, in reference to your new sources, the first three are directory listings and no one is debating that this actor was actually on the episodes of the shows from the directory listings. I do assert that WP:N warrants non-trivial coverage by reliable third party sources. Spok is actually a search engine and I, personally, would be hard-pressed to even include it in the article should the article be kept. Also, The interesting people link appears to be an email correspondence, which is also outside of the scope of reliable sources. I would assert that Badlit and Eastbay are the best sources found so far, however I feel that the mentions are trivial as the articles are about projects in which Sky had starring roles, both of which fall far from both wide release cinema and broadway. If Sky has won an award, was profiled by a journalist for his body of work or it can be shown that he has had a significant guest starring role on a television series where his character was an important part of the plot I would gladly change my view.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 08:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
On the verifiability of TV.com, again it seems that there is a misunderstanding about where the data for tv.com comes from. TV.com also accepts data in the form of submission tv.com help center. Therefore I assert that it is not reliable as a means of establishing notability.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 08:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I definitely will look into starting an all actor wiki and I appreciate the insightful discourse. Here is a link to an award Sky won in Los Angeles for best actor at the Hollywood MiniDV film festival. http://www.digitalvideofestival.com/showcase.php?year=2003 Also his role in the Criminal Minds episode "The Tribe" was a guest starring role and integral to the plot. I have a question in regards to this. How does someone on wikipedia discern significant? He was not the guest lead in this episode but it was a significant role that was integral to the plot development. He played one of the two lead kidnappers thought to be the murderers in the episode. Same with his role in the NCIS episode "Angel of Death". Another guest starring role, integral to the plot but not the guest lead. What do you need to establish significance here? He has the actual footage on his demo reel on his website that you can watch if you missed the episodes.

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Torchwood Who? (talk) 00:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak keep Most of his acting credits are bit parts, but one, "Slip", has him near the top of the cast list. If he had only this movie, or only the other bit parts, I'd say delete, but since he's got a little of both, I'd call him borderline notable. The article definitely needs cleaned up, however. JeremyMcCracken (talk) 04:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak keep. Based on what's here and looking at his credits, I don't see a problem with keeping the article for now and allowing it to be expanded and sourced. I've no objection to it being renominated in, say, 6 months if it hasn't been improved as I agree it's a borderline case. Certainly we're not chasing any deadlines here. We have all the time in the world. 23skidoo (talk) 05:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
That's true. I don't think I'm going to assist in cleaning it since the creator feels I might have a conflict of interest, but I would like to see it cleaned if the result is keep.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 05:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I think this is going to be a keeper based on the arguments above, but I'd like to note that I don't feel this fits the WP:N criteria. Most of the lengthy support seems to come from somebody who knows an awful lot about the acting world - I know there are a lot of actors who would envy the position that sky holds and the roles that he has played but I don't feel the significance is as deeply felt by those outside the business. BananaFiend (talk) 09:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I would be honored if Torchwoodwho would help clean up the article. I don't see it as a conflict of interest. I feel that through our continued conversation we have gotten past personal opinion and moved onto productive conversation regarding wikipedia guidelines. I did go to the link provided by Bananafriend.WP:N It was very clear.

The wikipedia guidelines regarding Actors are as follows.

Entertainers

Actors, comedians, opinion makers, models, and television personalities:

Here are the criteria used to assess inclusion.

   * Has had significant roles or been featured multiple times in notable films, television, stage performances, and other productions.
   * Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.
   * Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.
         o See WP:MUSIC for guidelines on musicians, composers, groups, etc.

Sky Soleil has been featured multiple times in notable TV shows. It also states clearly in the notability section - "Notable in the sense of being "famous", or "popular" - although not irrelevant - is secondary." Secondary to having been featured multiple times. So when people state that Sky is just an extra or has only played bit parts, aside from being untrue it is not a valid reason for his deletion. If he hadn't appeared multiple times on notable TV shows that would be a reason, but he clearly has. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here but I do feel people have been quick to make personal judgments about the career level of this actor and given the guidelines that should not be a basis for removal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.213.248.192 (talk) 00:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dustitalk to me 17:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. The problem I have with the above argument is that he wasn't "featured" but merely just "on". Under such an argument, if I had extremely minor (even walk-on) parts on the biggest shows in the country, I would be worthy of inclusion, simply because the shows were notable. As his parts weren't notable, being on the biggest television shows is not a valid reason for his inclusion, either. I realise that "fame" is a secondary thing, and that he hasn't had just small parts on television. But when I look at his body of work, I still don't think believe him to be worthy of inclusion. He hasn't had important or major roles. He hasn't significantly contributed to the art form in any way, although I do see he's directed a film. And I haven't seen proof of any cult following. Even if he's been on big shows, I don't think that's enough to justify a keep. SKS2K6 (talk) 21:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Torchwood Who? (talk) 10:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - some minor roles don't make him notable, but his award won in 2003 barely does. I'll add it to the article, including the source given above. Huon (talk) 12:18, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep: Aside from any other factor, has anyone noticed that this AfD has been relisted four times, three times by the nominator, and has dragged on for nearly a month? Either there is a consensus or there is not, and it sure seems not. At the best, this is process abuse -- is it proper at all for a nominator to relist his own AfD, even once? -- and some neutral admin should close this down immediately.  RGTraynor  14:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
CommentI don't appreciate an accusation of process abuse, I'm just going by the special situations description [2]. The last time the AfD was relisted (not by me) there was one single comment with a bias toward deletion and the comment just prior to that relisting also had a bias toward deletion. The last listing happened 7 days ago. I'm basing the relist on the fact that no one has seen fit to close the AfD with any consensus or even no consensus and I think it springs from so many "weak keep" arguments. Now that this has been listed for the, I think fourth time, we're finally getting some clear keeps and I think someone will be able to close it out rather quickly. I'm of the opinion that it would've gotten closed out in the last round if the only comment hadn't been for deletion.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 15:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Reply: The special situations section you cite specifies relisting if "not enough discussion occurs." Plainly, after the first relisting, with seven commentators, that was no longer the case. That no consensus was achieved often happens in AfDs, and in truth there's no consensus now. There are avenues to prod admins to close an overdue AfD beyond yet another relist which once again takes the AfD off the admins' radar.  RGTraynor  16:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I interpret the special circumstance to mean enough discussion to form a consensus, not to reach a no consensus, but we should really stay on topic. If you'd like to discuss on my talk page I'm all ears.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 17:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Weak Keep - any WP:COI issues need to be addressed very quickly even if it means stubbing the page but, he does seem to have multiple appearances and be an "award" winner (even if at a minor festival). I also am wondering why the constant relisting is occuring. Jasynnash2 (talk) 14:28, 9 April 2008 (UTC) Comment Oops.. spoke too soon. Already seems stubly. Jasynnash2 (talk) 14:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.