Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Simon de Rothschild

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Speedy Delete. No indication of notability. Canadian Northern became Canadian National around 1917-1919 (see http://www.cn.ca/about/company_information/history/en_AboutOurStory.shtml Birth of Canadian National). Current officers make no mention of any Rothschild http://www.cn.ca/about/investors/directors_officers/company_officers/en_InvOfficers.shtml Nothing else in article asserts any notability at all, so even if this person were real, this article fails WP:CSD#A7. Avi 16:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Simon de Rothschild

Simon de Rothschild (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This is a stub article with no verifiable information and no sources. It's likely to be a hoax article (much misinformation has been purged from it already) and there's no benefit to keeping it. - Nunh-huh 09:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. No assertion of notability. Possibly vanity page. Possibly hoax. —gorgan_almighty 13:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Comment notable member of the Rothschild family; try a web search (should be Meyer?). JJL 14:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC) the situation seems to be more complicated than I had realized. I had seen the pseudonyms used at the securities page but hadn't read the whole complaint, and took the Israeli Times article to have established his existence as part of the family. Thanks Llajwa for the info. JJL 18:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Calling yourself "Rothschild" does not make you a member of the Rothschild family: the gentleman in question does not appear in any reputable genealogy of that family.- Nunh-huh 17:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• I did a web search, and I still can't find any "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" as required by WP:N. What sources in particular were you referring to? —gorgan_almighty 15:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• I searched Google and found, e.g., [1], [2], [3], [4]. This was enough for me: A pres. and CEO of a large company, involved in a securities action, and a member of a notable and noble family. JJL 16:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It's good enough for you, perhaps, but "I read it on the web" is not good enough for a source here, and you seem not to have read these "sources" carefully. The "Baronwatch" website is particularly problematic. You say he's a president and CEO of a large company (but no source); you cite a wiki for the securities action (we don't have articles on everyone involved in a securities action), which mentions the man's many pseudonyms, and the fact that his "companies" don't really seem to be companies - hardly standard practice for someone who is actually CEO of a large company, and you claim he's a member of a noble family, which he is not. - Nunh-huh 17:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - There is evidence [5] that someone who used the name Simon de Rothschild (along with other names including DEAN GEORGE ROTHSCHILD, D.S.M. ROTHSCHILD, DEAN GEORGE MCDONALD, DAVID MICHAEL COSTELLO, AND SIMON ELAH WEINSTEIN) got in trouble with the Manitoba Securities Commission in 2000.

But no evidence has come to light that anyone named Simon de Rothschild is a prominent businessman in Canada or head of a company called Canadian Northern Railway.

Regarding Simon de Rothschild: a google search yields several sites that clearly draw their text from Wikipedia itself, as well as two others. This one [6] reads like a gag, and certainly is not a verifiable source for our page. This one [7], from the Israel Times, seems at first to be a strong source for our text: it’s from an article dated 2/23/2005, while Simon de Rothschild first entered Wikipedia in February 2006. However, a closer look suggests that the current Israel Times text does not date from 2005. It is an identical text to the correspondingly titled sections of the Wikipedia article Rothschild Family beginning in Spring 2006 [8], not the Wikipedia text as it stood in Feb 2005 [9]. Since the Wikipedia text for Rothschild Family evolved gradually between 2005 and 2006, it seems clear that the Israel Times piece as it stands was cut and pasted from Wikipedia at some point since Spring 2006.

Earlier versions of the Simon de Rothschild page claimed that he was a descendant of Mayer Anschel Rothschild, but the Rothschild Foundation emailed me that there is no such legitimate descendant.

Regarding the Canadian Northern Railway: this is a historic late-nineteenth-century railroad which went out of existence long ago. There does not appear to be any verifiable source that it was ever revived.

The original version of the Simon de Rothschild included all kinds of picaresque details about the person’s alleged misdeeds and accomplishments [10]. At one point someone claiming to be Simon de Rothschild himself wrote on a talk page, complaining about being libeled. There seem to be two likely scenarios: 1. The whole thing is a gag among friends; 2. there is a real Canadian con-man (see the Manitoba Securities Council allegations [11]) who falsely uses the name Simon de Rothschild, but he is not notable or the head of Canadian Northern Railway. Llajwa 18:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't realised the Rothschild family article also contained this apparently bogus and certainly unsourced information, so I've removed it from there; those wishing to see it can visit the revision still containing it. - Nunh-huh 18:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletions. IZAK 13:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletions. IZAK 13:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 13:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Nunh-huh (talk · contribs) concerns seems legitimate. Llajwa (talk · contribs) seems to have done his homework, so it's delete as a violation of WP:HOAX. This is a serious subject, see the main Rothschild family article as well as Category:Rothschild family. Thanks, IZAK 13:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• If he's a real Rothschild, then (at the prima-facie level, at least) there is a good chance he is notable; if he is a fraudster using the appellation, then I would suggest he is Wiki-notable, if only so that those looking him up will see that he is, in fact a fraudster. As to the truth of the article, I am content to leave that to experts. -- SockpuppetSamuelson 14:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Whether legitimate or a fraud, sources are needed to verify notability and there currently aren't any. Best, --Shirahadasha 22:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Comment, there is one newspaper link I can find that appears to validate that Simon de Rothschild is in fact a member of the Rothschild family and does head the Canadian Northern Railway here, but I find nothing else on him. --MPerel 22:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

If you'll read the discussion above, that "newspaper link" is in fact copied from an earlier version of the Wikipedia article. It validates nothing. All the more reason for Wikipedia to stop spreading this misinformation. - Nunh-huh 02:38, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I somehow missed that when I skimmed over the responses! There's something strange about the Israel Times website anyway, it appears to only have been registered July 2007, so something smells suspicious. --MPerel 01:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, the more I look at this the more suspicious it gets. Plus Llajwa has received email from the Rothschild Foundation stating there is no such legitimate descendant, and the Canadian Northern Railway is no longer in existence. --MPerel 01:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, A hoax or truth if it is notable it is a real subject and should be included in the worlds biggest encyclopedia.--יודל 17:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't make sense -- to be notable it should be clearly documented as either one or the other! If it's a hoax, we need sources documenting the hoax and its notability. Llajwa 18:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete The only verifiable information about him seems to be the securities complaint, and that's not sufficient to assert notability. Unless there's actual press coverage about his activities, I don't see that he warrants an article; this is an encyclopedia, not a directory of scammers. Choess 19:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. If he's for real ([12] possibly suggests so), then merge data into Rothschild family. Not notable for an article of his own in any case.-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       11:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

That "reference" is a mirror of Wikipedia's own article. It suggests nothing other than the fact that we are fairly efficient at spreading misinformation. - Nunh-huh 14:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.