Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Silvano Raggio Garibaldi

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete both.. CitiCat ^♫ 03:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silvano Raggio Garibaldi

Silvano Raggio Garibaldi (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Genoa CFC youth player with no professional/first team appearance. Non-notable per WP:BIO. Angelo 14:19, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related pages for the same reason above:

Andrea Signorini (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

:Mirko Lamantia (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

• This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. Angelo 14:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep - all three have been officially named as members of the senior team, not just the youth squad[1] (two of them with prominent squad numbers; 13 and 15). As it is a Serie A club that is notable in itself. Lamantia has also played professionally for Novara, Raggio Garibaldi has represented the Italian national team at under-18 level (which shows notablity). - Soprani 15:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, Signorini and Lamantia are not cited in the Genoa roster. Secondly, WP:BIO clearly defines a notable athlete as a "Competitor who have played in a fully professional league", not a "competitor who is part of a first team squad". In the end, there is no source stating Lamantia played with Novara's first team, and we already deleted several Under-18, Under-19 and Under-20 players who failed to fulfil the basic requirement of having played in a professional first team match. --Angelo 16:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:BIO. None of them have played in a fully professional league. Number 57 17:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Serie C1 is a professional league, that is the level Mirko Lamantia played last season. The highest non-pro Italian league is Serie D - Soprani 04:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep consensus has it that players pass notability while being first-team squad members at major clubs. This can be reviewed if they leave without playing, and don't join another notable club. ArtVandelay13 18:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• Two of these guys are not part of the first team at all, and the third was never featured in any of the matches as of today. --Angelo 18:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

So why do they have numbers? ArtVandelay13 18:28, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

In Italy, to have a shirt number does not necessarily mean to be a first team player. There is no limit for jersey numbers, so Italian teams used to assign up to 45/50 numbers, usually including many of their youth team players. For instance, Palermo assigned an official number to all of their Under-20 youth team players in their previous (2006-07) season. In fact, if you look at Genoa CFC website, they do not list Signorini and Lamantia in the first team. --Angelo 18:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Most leagues don't have a limit on numbers, but giving a player #13 or #15 must mean something. ArtVandelay13 18:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely nothing, especially in a country where a keeper can play with the #10. By the way, a former Livorno youth player was recently deleted, after he was first kept mainly because of his first team jersey (it was #17, namely); he obviously did not play a single match. --Angelo 19:03, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Point of Order - individual article talk consensus cannot override WP:BIO, an integral Wikipedia guideline. Ref ^(chew)(do) 20:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - none of the threeneither of the two have played at the required level, never mind if they've been given squad numbers. Comment - the current "Keep" votes are whims, and do not reflect correct policy in Wikipedia. Their ages (17 or thereabouts) generally make it unlikely that they will be given games in the near future. Representing their country at full international level is the only guarantee of notability outside this. Articles, if deleted, can however be re-introduced once this has happened. Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:28, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I am dropping Lamantia from the list, as he appears to have made 2 appearances with Novara in the Serie C1[2]. I first nominated it as his article did not prove a source stating he actually played for that team, and the infobox did not feature the number of appearances he made. --Angelo 11:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

• Suggestion I don't know from football, but if the reason that they aren't notable is that they haven't played with the notable team yet, and we expect them to do so soon, why don't we move the articles into the userspace until their first games? Clearly we have an active enough football following that someone will notice when they play their first games, and then we can move them back to the main encyclopedia. Deltopia 12:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

• It wouldn't exactly be a hardship to recreate the articles from scratch should it be required, since they only contain two sentences plus an infobox that restates the content of said two sentences.... ChrisTheDude 12:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
• Articles can be easily restored by an admin once they play in the first team, so I don't really see the issue. --Angelo 12:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Oppose the suggestion, as this would set a precedent for anyone wanting to 'store' non-notable articles until such time as they become so - it could run into thousands, all nicely put away in the cupboard for later (unless, that is, the potential of the NN is not realised). Non-notable is non-notable now, and that's what we are giving our thoughts on. Ref ^(chew)(do) 18:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm? If I wanted right now, I could create 500 non-notable articles in my userspace and "store" them as you say - you cannot CSD userspace articles unless they violate one of the G deletion arguments (not the A arguments, since they aren't in the article space). ugen64 23:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete the two per nom as they have not yet played in a professional league. There's no need to keep the articles in a virtual cupboard somewhere as an admin, as Angelo points out, can restore the deleted article if they should go on to play in a fully professional league. --Malcolmxl5 02:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.