Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shambhala Training
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 20:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Shambhala Training
The article Shambhala Training would appear to be little more than an advertisment for training offered by the Shambhala cult. It offers no critique or insight into the training, and no explanation of its philosophical underpinnings. No knowledge can be acquired from this page. As such it is nothing more than a promotional description of a 'service' that is for sale (at no inconsiderable cost), and thus is unworthy of being included in an encyclopedic context. -usigned comment by PastorJennifer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
- Would the author of the above paragraph please identify himself/herself? szpak 16:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but this seems like a drive-by smear. The word cult is loaded, as is the "at no inconsiderable cost" phrase, and suggests some axe grinding. Admittedly the article is rather thin, and needs to say more about what Shambhala Vision and Training is, both as it is presented in a secular context by its founder Chogyam Trungpa and by organizations inspired by his vision of a secular practice of the sacred, and as it is now being taught in a Buddhist context by Shambhala International and Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche. The article needs enriching. szpak 16:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 17:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Delete. I agree that the phrasing of the nomination is hostile. Nevertheless, WP:ADVERT still applies; it's an unnecessary splitoff from Shambhala Buddhism, where Shambhala International organisation is already described; nor is it third-party sourced per WP:V. Gordonofcartoon 17:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
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And, looking more closely at the history, its presence in Shambhala Buddhism is also unsourced [1] . Gordonofcartoon 18:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)- I've added 2 sources (Midal 2001, Trungpa 2004) to that page and to the Chogyam Trungpa page. szpak 16:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Change to keep but with strong reservations about some of the sourcing. Topics like these always seem to be weak on what I'd view as genuinely third-party references (ie ones written by reliable external observers not involved with the belief system described). The Seager and Prebish & Tanaka books look good but, for instance, the Jeremy Heyward books come from Shambhala Publications, the knitting one from someone with a background in Shambhala Buddhism, and Dragon Thunder is by the founder's wife. Gordonofcartoon 22:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- FYI, Shambhala Publications, founded by Samuel Bercholz in 1969, predates Vajradhatu and Shambhala International, and is independent of it. Bercholz did study with Chogyam Trungpa some time after he published Trungpa's first book, Meditation in Action (the story is that when he saw the first printed copy of the book, Trungpa was astonished to find that Shambhala Publications was the publisher, shambhala being a subject very close to his heart, about which he had not yet communicated). Hayward is a Shambhala Buddhist acharya. Fabrice Midal ("Chögyam Trungpa: His Life and Vision". ISBN 1-59030-098-X) is probably the most extensive "reliable external" observer. szpak 20:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Change to keep but with strong reservations about some of the sourcing. Topics like these always seem to be weak on what I'd view as genuinely third-party references (ie ones written by reliable external observers not involved with the belief system described). The Seager and Prebish & Tanaka books look good but, for instance, the Jeremy Heyward books come from Shambhala Publications, the knitting one from someone with a background in Shambhala Buddhism, and Dragon Thunder is by the founder's wife. Gordonofcartoon 22:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Delete per Gordonofcartoon. Bfigura (talk) 17:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)See below --Bfigura (talk) 21:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)- Delete as a copyvio of http://www.shambhala.org/programs/advanced.php . I would speedy, but the match isn't quite 100% on the sections I checked. Burzmali 19:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- Began the process of rewriting the article to focus on unique shambhala training teachings and how it fits as a secular canon distinct from tibetan buddhism. since much of the details of the teachings are secret and not citable, i've had to find references and commentaries on them in general books on buddhism in america and from two biographies on trungpa rinpoche. Owlmonkey 23:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. The article has changed significantly, and Gordonofcartoon's and Burzmali's concerns have been addressed. Re "unnecessary splitoff from Shambhala Buddhism", Shambhala Training has its own history that predates Shambhala Buddhism. szpak 14:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. With additional detail on the teachings, the rewrites provide value beyond what should be included in the Shambhala Buddhism page. It's worthwhile as a stand alone topic, after significant improvement. Owlmonkey 19:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep due to cleanup. Seems sourced and notable now. (This is a change of !vote from above). --Bfigura (talk) 21:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
