Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seventh Party System

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. - Mailer Diablo 16:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

A DRV consensus has overturned the previous closure unanimously, resulting in a deletion of the article. [1] Xoloz 15:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seventh Party System

Article was prodded, but author deprodded for consistency with First to Sixth Party System. It looks to me as if the whole range is fairly unnotable, but that the use of the terms declines dramatically to the end of the range, making the article Seventh Party System a case of WP:OR. Seventh Party System gets 10 distinct Google hits, which is terribly low for something that only started in 1994. Of these links, at least this one[2] lets the seventh start in 2000 at the earliest. This article[3] only agrees on the first five (which are not up for deletion), and sees the outlines of a seventh system only in 1996. So we have very few references for a seventh party system, and the few we have disagree seriously. This makes the concept non notable and the article WP:OR or at least not according to WP:NPOV and hard to WP:V. By the way, we even have only 59 distinct Google hits for the Sixth Party System, so the whole concept seems to be a bit out of fashion... Fram 19:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

• TJS in xyr dissertation (TJS (2003-11-17). "OntarioElectionStudy" (Microsoft Word). . Duke University) says "a debate rages as to whether the United States is in its sixth or even seventh party system" and cites Aldrich. Aldrich (John H. Aldrich (1999). "Political Parties in a Critical Era". American Politics Research 27 (1): 9–32. SAGE Publications. doi:10.1177/1532673X99027001003. ), in xyr turn, merely argues (writing in 1999) that we "should be reaching the end of the consequent sixth party system". U.S. political historians don't appear to yet agree that the seventh party system has yet come to be. Uncle G 20:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, Aldrich makes up at least 2 of the 10 links I found regarding the 7th PS. Umm, Uncle G, was that a Keep, a Delete, or just a helpful comment (which is of course welcome)? Fram 20:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I say we Keep this article. I surely agree that there may be disagreement as to when the Seventh began, but that point is worthy of noting in the article itself. It certainly isn't a valid reason or point to delete the article. If you feel the whole range is unnotable, perhaps the proposal to delete should be the whole range, not just one part of it. In fact by selectively deleting only this one portion, it would leave the reader confused as to the missing time frame (that you propose to delete.) I don't believe there would be much support at all to delete the entire range, as it is a scholarly term and subject much studied. As far as google hits, many somewhat abstract scholarly discussions will not find a wide discourse in general society. That surely is no reason to delete from wikipedia, or any encyclopedia for that matter. (You will find many topics with articles in wikipedia that are far less scholarly or otherwise used than this, and they too are worthy of maintaining inclusion.) Wikipedia has no requirements as far as numerical google hits.

I hope my comments help with some context as to the need for this article, as part of the series.

Sincerely, Josephf 21:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

On a further note, being that we were discussing google results, John H. Aldrich of Duke University is one of the scholars as far back as in 1997 (in Political Science Quarterly, see [4] ) made the polical science observation that we are currently in the Seventh Party System.

• Delete Non-historical, nonreferenced. Just because some poly sci wonks have speculated about a seventh party realignment, it does not mean it should be presented as a scholarly consensus, as this article appears to do. From a practical standpoint, the article makes no argument for any great sea change in the parties in 1994, only that the Republicans took control of the Congress in that year. I don't see why the "Seventh Party System" would not have begun in 1980 ("Reagan Revolution"; "Reagan coalition" controls Congress) or 1972 (Nixon Landslide, effective death of '60s-style big government liberalism). Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi

Allon, I think you would be better suited to suggest the article be updated to clarify your points, rather than delete the article in its entirety. Certainly it has historical value, and we have some references in this discussion (see above) that ought to be included in the article itself. As far as scholarly consensus is concerned, we could discuss in the article any scholarly disagreements as to the timeframe of the Seventh, when it began, when the Sixth ended, etc. In 1994 the Congress became Republican for the first time in 40 (fourty) years.) That it seems is quite a sea change. It certainly is a strong argument for the scholars who classify the Seventh beginning in 1994. In any event, these points ought to be mentioned in the article. (Hence the reason why the article is currently classified as a 'stub'.) 169.132.18.248 14:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

But the term is only used by very few authors, and even those disagree on when and how. What makes "seventh party system" notable? Being the logical next after "sixth" is no argument,a we could then just create "eigth", "ninth" and "tenth" as well. e should have articlse on scientific terms that are widely used in their speciality, but it looks like "seventh party system" is not widely used at all and is rather obscure. When it gets more mainstream (at least to the level of "fifth party system", although even fourth and fifth party system are still pretty obscure), then an article would be warranted. Now, it seems that only very few authors / scholars use the term, while mainstream politicologists / historians don't use this classification, certainly not for recent times. Fram 15:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Fram, As mentioned previously, your argument then should be do delete the Sixth Party System as well, not just the Seventh. Now your saying even the 4th & 5th are "pretty obscure" (in your words), it seems you are arguing to delete the whole series. Are you planning to propose to delete this series piecemeal, one by one? I don't think there is the rough consensus needed for that.

Sincerely, Joseph 15:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Violates WP:NOR and WP:NFT --141.156.232.179 22:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia's afd policy is not to count anonymous votes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwertyqazqaz (talk • contribs) 21:10, 21 September 2006

• Stong Keep It should have a citation needed remark maybe, not delete. Give it some more time to get the references. If you delete because its an obscure scientific term, you'll delete 50% of Wikipedia scientific articles, since most scientific articles are obscure to non specialists (political science and other sciences.) Qwertyqazqaz 01:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

But this one is obscure inside its speciality. Fram 05:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment This discussion has gotten off track. The argument isn't that this is an obscure poly sci term, but that to the extent political scientists have spoken of this term it has been speculative. This article passes it off as common wisdom that there was a party realignment in 1994-- which it isn't-- and does so completely absent of sourcing. Now, if someone were to add sources to the article, that would be a VERY different situation. The point is, as it is written the article is very misleading; there is no consensus or even substantial academic support that I know of for the idea that a new party system began in 1994. Allon Fambrizzi 23:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

• Weak Delete for now. No common usage established. JASpencer 10:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep Allow time for additional stuff--references,etc. The Sixth article is no more informative than the seventh. Both are listed as stubs. Since poli scientists to a certain extent use both, allow discussion of who agrees with it and who not in the article itself. Homehouse 00:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I see there is 3 Keeps and 2 Deletes (not counting an anonymous vote.) Can we remove the tag from the article? (There seems to be a strong argument for maintenance and at best there is no rough consensus to remove.) Joseph 16:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.