Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sephardic Pizmonim Project (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Really, even discounting some WP:ILIKEIT comments, there isn't a concensus to do anything here. - Daniel.Bryant 07:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sephardic Pizmonim Project

Sephardic Pizmonim Project (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

The first AfD (here ended with no consensus, so I'm renominating it. Many of the voters voted keep simply because the article was new and were waiting for the article to grow and accrue more references. Sufficient time has passed and not much improvement has been achieved. I am cross-posting from Talk:Sephardic Pizmonim Project my analysis of the two sources that User:David Betesh has provided:

The organization is not notable, period. With all due respect to the wonderful cause that it represents, it is entirely unheard of outside of the Syrian community, and even inside the community its mention would barely raise an eyebrow. The two sources consist of:

  • A paragraph from Aleppo - City of Scholars that reads (in its entirety):
"Mr. David Betesh, a great-grandson of Gabriel Shrem, received these tapes [of pizmonim] as a Bar Mitzvah gift from his grandmother, Florence Zeitouni, the daughter of Gabriel Shrem, and resolved to pass on this treasured gift to the entire community. He re-released and upgraded both the published and the unpublished works of his great-grandfather to create an inclusive and wide-ranging recording of pizmonim. The CD set, which is distributed by the Bnai Yosef Synagogue, also includes an explanation of the origin of each maqam, as well as the perashah or occasion during which it should be used and why."

...which is honestly very nice, but it amounts to virtually nothing within an encyclopedic work about the Syrian Jewish community.

  • An article in Community Magazine. Community Magazine is a publication geared to a small subset of the Syrian community, and it will routinely report on even the most insignificant happenings in the community [things like a high school's trip to Israel on a "chesed mission", or a small-time Orthodox Jewish magician who has to struggle to keep kosher on the road, etc.].

The paucity of substance in the nature of each of these sources is reason enough to discount the notability of the SPP. In short, delete. DLandTALK 16:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 08:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, hmmm, it may be a small organization/project but this is where I believe Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia comes into play. The project involves preserving Sephardic cultural elements that might otherwise soon be lost, and therefore carries historic, scholarly, cultural importance. I see it as basically on the same order as the National Yiddish Book Center, a larger but similar project intended to preserve Yiddish language and culture. --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 17:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment, If it were on the same order as the National Yiddish Book Center then I would agree to keep, but it's not. The example you gave is of an actual institution with personnel and a physical location to boot. The Sephardic Pizmonim Project is essentially one person (David Betesh) who decided to sell some CDs. Don't let the professional-looking web design of the website fool you. --DLandTALK 18:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree that it is at least borderline. I can't find much in the way of reliable sources referring to SPP on the internet, though I also don't see much of anything on the Syrian Sephardic community or pizmonim in general, which is probably due more to the fact that most of anything out there would not be in English. Btw, Aaron Lansky didn't always have personnel and a location for his Yiddish project (NYBC), he spent years as just a one-man student operation. I think projects dedicated to preserving ancient culture are of significant historical value that deserve an encyclopedia article. You'll definitely find more pop culture on the web, and are less likely to find info on nearly lost cultures. We want to keep "fluff" out of the encyclopedia, but I don't think this is fluff. --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 18:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • one more comment : ) ... I note that there is a blurb in the Pizmonim article on the project: Pizmonim#Sephardic_Pizmonim_Project. Perhaps that is sufficient, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps this could redirect there. --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 18:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • When Lansky's project was small, deleting it would have been the correct thing. We can't keep things on the basis that they might become large later. JoshuaZ 19:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Pizmonim per Mperel's comment above. JoshuaZ 19:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I think that would be an appropriate solution. I admire what Mr. Betesh has accomplished tremendously, and I do think his project deserves some kind of niche - just not its own article. Unfortunately it seems that he has taken this as some kind of personal vendetta. --DLandTALK 20:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - this is just too close to the last AfD for such a low-traffic article and one in which I'm still trying to think of how we can judge these cultural artifacts verses how we would judge "fan cruft". Little bit amused that someone we know removed related talk and the AfD nomination ! Oh boy does no-one actually realise what Watchlists are !. Ttiotsw 16:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep it's at least borderline + , and that should be keep. the problem is of sourcing this sort of material, and its now done as well as can reasonably be expected. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DGG (talk • contribs) 08:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC).
  • keep --Java7837 04:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per User:MPerel. This article is not a marvel of anything but it is also not the "villainous piece" that is portrayed by the nominator. I just think that User:DLand is being too tough on this one. Wikipedia has lots of time on its hands... IZAK 08:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. In logical analysis, it can be very easy to prove that something exists, while it can be treacherously difficult to prove that something doesn't exist (see Fermat's Last Theorem for math buffs). This AfD demonstrates that the same applies to Wikipedia: It's extremely easy (and often disingenuous as a result) to "prove" that a topic is notable, while it is well nigh impossible to prove that it is not notable. Indeed, if actual evidence existed showing non-notability, it would not be non-notable in the first place! To the issue at hand - I, through my personal connection and exposure to the Syrian Jewish community in Flatbush, Brooklyn, KNOW that the SPP is not notable. I can't prove that it's not notable, because that would be a logical fallacy. No other user (besides User:David Betesh, obviously) can claim to have personal knowledge of this project. Of course I realize that this testimony doesn't hold much water in an AfD vote, but I feel that I should air my thoughts anyway. And to IZAK, I never said that the article is "villainous" - I just don't think it belongs in an encyclopedia, even one that is not made of paper. --DLandTALK 13:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Strong delete There are much more important projects out there doing the same thing and ten times better. And more important websites on the topic. This is a unknown single person with only 5500 of CD- almost unknown. This is an unfunded project by an unknown. Here is a more important project funded by Avi Chai http://www.piyut.org.il/english/ Hebrew University has a project of Pizmonim as do others.--Jayrav 14:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

KEEP I use this web site for the knowledge it has to offer. This is a very helpful, educational and useful website. I agree there are many other projects to look up to and to move forward but i dont think it means we should push others down. Stop critisizing and start working on the important things, while others work on the less important think, at least in your eyes.

  • The above contribution by 129.98.208.32 is user's fourth edit.--DLandTALK 01:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. In the first AFD, I wrote, "Delete. I really don't have a reason to delete, but I feel like sticking up for DLand for nominating a potentially nonnotable musical entity." I'm glad I have a chance to speak more wisely this time. DLand has established a clear case. It is incorrect to say that an article needs sources and the subject needs to be notable. An article needs sources, and those sources should affirm its notability. Everything depends on the sources. Since the sources are demonstrably trivial, notability has not been established. The SPP is a one-man, non-commercial project that has not received serious press coverage. If you take away the "Jewish culture" aspect, and evaluate solely based on WP:MUSIC, it falls short of the criteria for inclusion. YechielMan 05:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.