Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Semjase

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was REDIRECT to Billy Meier, it appears we're not deleting but the ... non-existence ... problem is very, uh ... real. -Splash - tk 17:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semjase

Semjase (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This article is about a Plejaran allegedly in contact with Billy Meier. Since this alien speaks only to Meier, any discussion about her is best kept on Meier's page. The, er, character does not seem otherwise notable enough for her own entry on Wikipedia (especially not such a remarkably credulous report on her remarkable life). Sorry for marking this "biography", but what else is it? Phiwum 18:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• Merge into Billy Meier to the extent there's anything salvageable in the article. The Meier article could use some NPOV-touchup, also. -- THF 18:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment NB that my merge suggestion reflects the assumption that there is something Wikipedia-worthy in the article, which is currently devoid of reliable sources. It may well not merit more than a sentence or two in the Meier article, which itself needs pruning. I don't see WP:SIZE as an objection, since the sum total of what is notable about Meier should surely fit within Wikipedia length. -- THF 18:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Merge - merge into Billy Meier, given that the topic of Semjase seems to relate directly to Meier's experiences. There are other Pleiadeans to, so we can start a pattern by placing Semjase's article into Meier's profile so we can help prevent future Pleiadeans who have claimed to have visited Meier from having their own separate article (in other words, they follow along with the Semjase's article and merge into the Meier profile where most of the contact data links to) (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · contributions} 20:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• Good idea - the last thing we need is a plethora of Pleiadeans. Seriously though, given that one (arguably notable) fantasist is the subject of an article it makes sense to merge individual elements of his fantasy into the main article as short sections. Non-judgemental but also not giving undue credence to unsupported claims. andy 21:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. I think I was washing my hair on the day that WP decided to support unreferenced fantasies. Show me a single external reference that does not ultimately originate from Billy Meier and I'll support this article, otherwise... d'uh! andy 22:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Articles about fictional characters are an acknowledged and accepted part of Wikipedia. Merging into Billy Meier would make that already rather long article even longer. WP:SIZE|WP:PAPER — Graf Bobby 09:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

But surely not articles about non-notable fictional characters who only exist in the imagination of one person? On that basis any kid's imaginary friend would be acceptable. Where are the references?

This character is not a notable fictional character in the same way that Frodo Baggins is - a character who has assumed independent existence through the imagination of readers or participants. "She" is in fact a non-notable non-existent person whose real existence is claimed by one person only and without any means of independent verification. andy 10:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, of course a lot more people read Tolkien than Billy Meier's stuff. But of those that do, a significant number probably believes that Semjase is real. That alone makes her somehow notable. Of course the article shouldn't treat it as a fact, as it does now. — Graf Bobby 11:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to be awkward but Tolkien doesn't claim that Frodo is real, and no-one (I hope!) thinks he is. It just requires a willing suspension of disbelief and that is what makes him a fictional character. But if Meier says that this character is real that statement is either true or false - if false then she's a non-existent person and should only be the subject of a separate article if she's notable. Although if it's all true... andy 12:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually that was the point I was trying to make. Nobody believes that Frodo is real, but some people believe that Semjase is real. And that kinda makes Semjase more notable than Frodo, just as I consider Phlogiston more notable than Mithril. (Of course, it wasn't just a couple of cranks that believed in the Phlogiston stuff.) — Graf Bobby 12:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

As nominator, perhaps I didn't make my case clear. I don't mean Semjase should be deleted just because there is no proof she exists or just because she speaks to only one person. After all, a lot of significant religious figures speak to a very small number of persons. But their significance comes from the widespread influence of the religion and the many believers in these otherwise unverifiable characters. Meier has considerably less influence and the character of Semjase is known to a very small minority of not particularly influential people. In plain terms, it's not her non-existence that concerns me. It is her lack of notability. (Of course, we can disagree on whether she is notable enough.) Phiwum 13:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

On that point, it's interesting and possibly indicative that no believer has protested about the notice. I can't imagine that the hobbit fraternity would be silent if Frodo was up for deletion! andy 14:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Probably none of the believers have noticed the AFD yet. Phiwum 15:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• so ryu from street fighter and goku from dragon ball z should have their articles deleted b/c they do not exist and are considered fictional characters? no, this article should be kept or merged (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont} 15:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has suggested removing Semjase on the grounds that she does not exist. Merging the data into Billy Meier is acceptable to me, so long as (1) most of this overly long biography is omitted for reasons of space and (2) it is re-written in a more neutral tone. If, on the other hand, Semjase is really notable enough for her own page (which I doubt), then (2) is sufficient. Phiwum 15:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• I was about to agree with you and say merge but then I re-read the policy on notability at Wikipedia:Notability#Deletion:"A topic can fail to satisfy the criteria because there are insufficient published works from reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Without such sources, a proper encyclopedia article cannot be built at all. Such articles are usually nominated for deletion..." - which is pretty clear. There are as far as I understand it no independent sources because there is only one source of information. andy 15:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.