Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sean Bennett

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was DELETE. dbenbenn | talk 06:05, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sean Bennett

A current student isn't very notable. Seems like vanity to me. JimmyShelter 20:32, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Delete, not notable - 60 Google hits (Sean Bennett + pianist), possible artist vanity. Megan1967 01:51, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• I disagree, this guy is one of the most downloaded classical artists on the internet whether a student or not. My google of him revealed a lot more hits and showed that he is currently #1 in several categories on the Vitaminic download site. -- A fan
  • This comment/vote is from User:67.37.178.134 --BM 16:10, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, I'm a musician and have heard of this guy and have downloaded his recordings. He has a fan club [1], was the youngest to record the famed Rach 3, and a quick check shows that the article is factually accurate (although I'm not sure about the bits about his ideology, so might change these). --Urbanguy1 22:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • User signed up after this VfD was opened. --BM 15:49, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, I wrote this article originally because I heard Mr Bennett on his concert tour of Universities in England this last summer and was blown away. The concert I went to was packed and the audience reaction was really, really amazing (8 curtain calls!). He had only announced the concert with a week notice as this is the way he seems to operate. After interviewing him I realized how incredible it was for him to write down those Horowitz transcriptions from the recording. Ruth Laredo and John Bell Young have called him a world-class pianist and the Chicago Tribune said "Sean Bennett commands the piano." --Evolving2 22:18, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Author of the article. --BM 15:51, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Should note that this author's contriubtions to Wikipedia seem to be entirely related to Sean Bennett so far. Knowing who the past chairs of the Gates Scholars council are seems something unlikely for someone who simply heard Bennett on a concert tour. --Grouse 16:11, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • Was all in Bennett's standard bio given with concert programs and on download.com/seanbennett....'"Keep'"
      • This comment is from User:66.205.229.58. Please sign your comments. The OTHER previous chairs of the Gates Scholars ("Jennifer Gibson, and Moncef Tanfour") were listed in Bennett's standard bio. That really stretches credulity. --Grouse 23:29, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        • Do not delete other users' comments, User:66.205.229.58! --Grouse 23:29, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        • As a Cambridge Student, I have followed the emergence of the Gates Council. I never claimed that *everything* came from the bio. --Evolving2 03:24, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Additionally, a search of the Chicago Tribune archives from 1985 on cannot find any instances of the phrase "Sean Bennett commands" so I think all the above claims need further evidence --Grouse 16:13, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • In Chicago Tribune Dec 16, 1995 in Lake County Section, Sean Bennett commands... in photo caption: '"Keep'"
      • This comment is from User:66.205.229.58. Claiming that a photo caption (which is still not verified) establishes notability is laughable. And not mentioning that it was only a photo caption, not a review, in the first place, is disingenuous, and only casts doubts on the other claims made. --Grouse 23:29, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • The article under the photo was a positive review of a performance of Bennett's in a concert with Jazz Artist Ramsey Lewis for the Steinway Society, the quote was merely drawn from the photo caption as an example. It is in no way ingenuous, check the records if you disagree.
• Keep Did googles "Sean Bennett + piano" = 200 pages, "Sean Bennett + music" = 1850 pages, almost all him. I have listened to his download.com recordings before and they sound professional and notable to me. Interesting, I found what amounts to a war over the merits of his playing where 40 people chime in [2]. This shows that even if controversial he is still pretty discussed/known...--JonKSchmidt 22:37, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Users only edit. --BM 15:51, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Comments, I've made some corrections to his article - according to his website [www.seanbennett.net] he shouldn't be a student anymore, added some of the press reviews I found for him, and updated based on his CV that he has taught extensively at Cambridge University in both psychology and music. I took out the bit about "important" psychological findings as I don't know that they warrant this label, as I couldn't find much discussion about him as a psychologist (although a google search did turn up many hits). --Urbanguy1 23:27, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, I downloaded some of his MP3s a couple years ago, including the Samuel Barber sonata (which I can still "hear" in my head), and didn't know he had a Wikipedia entry. Didn't know he was a child prodigy, either, but it doesn't surprise me at all. Maybe his page needs to be revised to make it look less like an advertisement. He's notable, and a promising talent. Please don't delete.
  • This vote is from User:Sandover. --BM 15:54, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Despite its length and detail, this biography comes down to: he was a child prodigy as a pianist, won youth competitions (including a "secret" one), and gave concerts; it is claimed he is the youngest person to perform the notoriously difficult Rach 3; he went to Harvard College, and graduated with high honors (note, not highest honors, which wouldn't be notable either); he won a fellowship for a year at Cambridge, and now he is a graduate student at Harvard, where he has won an award for teaching based on student feedback forms; as a graduate student, he did some research, just like all graduate students; he's released a lot of his piano performances on mp3.com. However, being a child prodigy on the piano is not especially notable; going to Harvard and graduating with high honors isn't either; winning a fellowship is more of a distinction, but is still not notable; and releasing your piano performances through mp3.com isn't notable. This guy obviously has extraordinary potential, and deserves the honors that he has received so far. However, youth and student honors don't add up to notability. I'd give odds that he'll be notable enough for the Wikipedia one day. But he isn't now. --BM 15:47, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • What about the download record? This I think is the main measure of notability in this instance...
  • Also, Bennett was already visiting teaching faculty at Harvard (notable?), not a PhD student...
• Seems promising, but as of now has not cleared the notability bar. No CDs available, as far as I can tell. Maybe in a couple years. Delete. -R. fiend 21:40, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Purely vanity. Much of the content seems to be copied from a bio on Sean's personal web page, so the original author either (a) is Sean, (b) is cooperating with Sean to produce this article, or (c) is a copyvio. In any of these cases, the article should be deleted. --Grouse 15:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Contacted Sean by email to ask permission to use his bio online. He consented. I also asked some of his other fans to chime in, hence the few post VfD users... --Evolving2

• Delete. A lot of time for him to gain notability and then be re-included here. The entry as it stands isn't especially interesting. Mandel 10:35, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
• Rewritten. I rewrote to highlight better why Bennett is notable. This included more clearly noting his Download records, and the unique contributions he has made to piano performance and the science of music, and making the entry less "ad like." I removed the psychological theory aspect as I agree at this point that this is not at the same level of notability as the music contributions. I still think that one of the most downloaded classical artists on the Internet with this kind of story deserves an entry in the encyclopedia of the Internet. He's changing the landscape of how classical music is heard. I reiterate: *Strong Keep! --Evolving2 19:14, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• There are still claims in the "rewritten" article that I know are inflated, such as the teaching stuff, and that leads me to doubt all the other claims of notability. For example, the author (and are you Sean, or Sean's friend? It might be time to come clean on that...) claims that he has taught at the University of Cambridge, although he is not listed in any recent list of the members of the university faculties or lecture-lists. [3] The award for teaching at Harvard (which would be called doing a teaching assistantship at any other U.S. university) which was supposedly notable appears to have been won by the teaching assistants of a mere 453 other classes [4]. Also, I don't think you get extra points for trying to vote multiple times, or for making your vote "strong." --Grouse 19:55, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Grouse: you should be more careful of your accusations before you make them. This is not the first time you have made incorrect accusations. Mr. Bennett was a lecturer of Keyboard at Cambridge for the Music Faculty in 2003-2004, and from 2002-2004 was Supervisor in the same department for the following subject areas: IA Analysis and Set work, IB Analysis and Repertoire, IB Advanced Keyboard, II Performance (essay and piano coaching), Dissertation (IB and II, piano literature/composers/performers, performance practice, psychology/neurobiology of music, popular music 1955-present, history of American music 19th century-present). Also listed as available supervisor for Music and Science. He taught for three summers at Cambridge through the Oxbridge Academics Program as the Psychology Professor (2002-2004). Contact the administrators for the department of music at Cambridge if you'd like further verification of his teaching experience or qualifications (available at mus.cam.ac.uk). Additionally, the article does not claim anything about his teaching award at Harvard that was not true: Mr. Bennett was a "Senior Teaching Fellow" at Harvard during the said period, and was a Non-Resident Tutor of Psychology at Pforzheimer House (all in his CV), and won the Bok Award for the said period. He was not a teaching assistant, as he was not a graduate student. The rewritten article does not highlight this award as one of the most notable of Mr. Bennett's achievements, merely provides it as ancillary information to give a more complete picture of the individual (but to further drive the point, using your logic, is a Grammy winner non-notable because hundreds of others have won Grammys before?). As said before, I am a fan of Mr. Bennett and have followed him and his career since hearing him in concert last summer and believe that he is notable. I'm sorry you don't believe so, but kindly request that you check more carefully before making further comments that falsly undermine the article I've spent a lot of energy writing. Perhaps the highlight of Mr. Bennett in the Chronicle of Higher Education as "one of the future world leaders" will establish his notability for you: [5] -Evolving2 04:25, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• I don't see how I have made any incorrect claims. Mr. Bennett is still not on the published lecture-list or list of faculty for Cambridge at that time, which he would be if he were notable. Being a supervisor in this context, meaning a graduate teaching assistant, is not notable. Calling someone who teaches high school students in a summer program a "Professor" is just plain silly. You are welcome to describe how the role of a "Senior Teaching Fellow" differs from a teaching assistant, but it is definitely not a member of the faculty (which would not automatically be notable). If someone won a Grammy Award but it were only for a local area, and there were about 900 other awards given annually in that local area, then yes, I would think it non-notable. And if they then tried to compare that to winning a national Grammy, then I would think it inflation of their accomplishments. As usual the Chronicle article does not even say what you claim it does. And if you are not someone who is close to Sean, have you verified the information he has provided on his CV? How? --Grouse 13:12, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Cambridge routinely hires its Keyboard Lecturers late in the annual cycle because the number depends on the number of undergraduates who chose to enroll in the Music Tripos. That is why M. Ennis (Faculty Board Chair) is listed, and the others are not (but again, this doesn't mean they weren't there, teaching, under the title). Anyone who knows or understands Cambridge realizes that the bureaucracy there precludes them from making timely updates, particularly in University documents. Professors as well as advanced graduate students are referred to as "Supervisors" at Cambridge so again you have erred (and they are also paid in accordance with the approximate per-hour pay schedule of listed Lecturers). Mr. Bennett was given the title Senior Teaching Fellow at Harvard because of his experience as an instructor at Cambridge, and its not exactly as if his award teaching was non-notable: most would agree that Harvard is one of the top universities in the world so where are teaching accolades more meaningful? He nor I picked the title "Professor" for his involvement with the Oxbridge program. Excuse me for my slight error: if I move the quote two words forward, then indeed the Chronicle Article does indeed refer to Mr Bennnett as a "Future World Leader" (see title).

I'm sorry you continue to be loosy-goosy with your pot-shots against Mr Bennett, but your insistent attempts to nit-pick at ancillary points (and to continue to do so incorrectly, not to mention your grills regarding my comments in this forum, which are not fundamentally at issue) are weakening your fundamental argument against Mr. Bennett: that you claim he is not notable. If anything, you are merely exposing that Mr. Bennett is a lot more notable than I originally portrayed in the article or its rewrite. I'm not sure what level of verification you want from me short of seizing copies of Mr. Bennett's bank deposit slips and diary entries. As far as I'm concerned, his recordings, freely available on the web, are reason enough to make Mr. Bennett a pianist of note and worthy of his entry in wikipedia. Everything else about him just adds to his collective notability, and I've been careful to include things that I am sure are true. --Evolving2 17:51, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• As a graduate student at the University of Cambridge, I am well qualified to know what a supervisor is. Indeed I have a supervisor who is a senior researcher, and I have friends who are first-year graduate students who are supervisors. It is a word that means nothing without context, and as I said, in this context he was a graduate teaching assistant. Even when pressed you have not indicated that there is any difference between the duties of a Senior Teaching Fellow and a teaching assistant, and I am still waiting for evidence to the contrary. Claiming that The Chronicle of Higher Education called Sean a "future world leader" because the title of the article refers to other organizations are trying to pick future world leaders, is as spurious as your claims that The Chicago Tribune said he "commands the piano" in what turned out to be a photo caption. It is the context that is what is missing from these claims, and that is what I am providing.
• If you are a graduate student at Cambridge (and I'm assuming that this latest reply was an unsigned one from grouse), wouldn't that give you jealousy as a motive for trying to discredit Mr. Bennett, who recently was a graduate student at Cambridge also? And why did you not know the difference between a supervisor and a graduate teaching assistant in the first instance (or again, as I've mentioned many times, are you not being accurate?)? And why, when Mr Bennett was a Lecturer of Keyboard (which are hired in their own right, not through the normal supervisory process), do you continue to discredit him as a "graduate teaching assistant"? Furthermore, you never asked about the *duties* of a Senior Teaching Fellow at Harvard: in fact, as far as I understand, they have more of a say in the manner in which the course is conducted and grades are assigned in a course than a regular teaching fellow or teaching assistant (and are additionally compensated to reflect this increased duty). I'm sorry, but the comments regarding Mr Bennett from the Chicago Tribune and Chronicle are accurate, and any reasonable person would agree that I have portrayed these accurately. The Chronicle article was about picking future world leaders, and Mr. Bennett was profiled, along with a handful of others who I'd also claim were profiled as "future world leaders." The Chicago Tribune did say that Mr Bennett "commands the piano" in the context of an even more glowing article/review. What is your real problem here? Is it that you are uncomfortable with your present accomplishments as a graduate student at Cambridge and the fact that they may not be wikipedia worthy? Is it that you might be threatened by the fact that I too am a graduate student at Cambridge who now knows of Mr Bennett and supports his work and that somehow offends you? If this is a personal beef with me or Mr. Bennett, as I'm beginning to think it might be, I suggest you take it off this forum. You are wasting my time and that of the others who have taken the time to chime into this debate about Mr. Bennett. Your attempts to anger me just continue to allow me to expose the depth of Mr. Bennett and thus, his notability for inclusion in wikipedia. --Evolving2 03:24, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.