Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scottish Gaelic punk

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep per consensus. (closed by non-admin) RMHED (talk) 20:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scottish Gaelic punk

Scottish Gaelic punk (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Was nominated in 2/2/2006, when titled Gaelic punk, with the result of No Consensus. This hasn't gained any reliable, independent direct sources since that date. There are mentions of punk music in the Gaelic language when The Scotsman talks about Mill a h-Uile Rud (who are described as "a Seattle-based band who sing in Scots Gaelic") or Oi Polloi (who are described as "an anarcho-punk band from Scotland"), but no sustained information on a credible music style which goes by the name of Gaelic Punk, and especially Scottish Gaelic Punk. This reads like an unsourced piece of Original research. This article doesn't meet the basic criteria of WP:N, nor of WP:Music. SilkTork *SilkyTalk 16:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

  • delete whilst the specific term is found here in the scotsman [1]. I don't believe it is describing a genre, the word gaelic is used an adjective. Genres are usually only considered notable after significant reliable second party sources. --Neon white (talk) 17:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep - "Gaelic Punk" was a silly title, as Manx and Irish are "Gaelic". It is not really a genre as such as referring to punk sung within the Scottish Gaelic language. The genre has been frequently noted by Scottish media, i.e. BBC radio, the TV (in English and Gàidhlig), national newspapers such as the Scotsman etc. Whole documentaries have been made on this subject. --MacRusgail (talk) 17:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC) p.s. It may make more sense to entitle the page, "Punk in Scottish Gaelic", but that's by the by.
This is the perfect time to provide evidence of these sources. --Neon white (talk) 17:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Erm, there are no less than five external links at the bottom of the page itself which are not from bands' websites. Not exactly hard to find. --MacRusgail (talk) 17:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
They are not second party reliable sources that describe this as a genre, probably the reason they weren't used as citations. --Neon white (talk) 18:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
How is The Scotsman "unreliable"? Do you realise it's arguably the most significant newspaper in this country? The likely reason that they weren't used as "citations", is because it is actually difficult for people who don't spend 20 hours a day on wikipedia trying to learn to work the thing... And by the way, the "genre" debate is a red herring. --MacRusgail (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. The problems with sourcing can be addressed without too much work, and the topic itself is notable. The genre is known in not only the Gaelic-speaking areas and the Celtic nations, but also abroad. (OR here, but I've certainly heard it discussed on both Gaelic and Punk radio broadcasts, and among both Gaelic speakers and punk rock fans in Scotland and the US.) I probably won't have time to do it today or tomorrow, but there is content on the pages in the external links that can be used for inline citations. The Scotsman is certainly a WP:V and WP:RS reliable source, and I'm pretty sure I can dig up additional hardcopy sources as well, given a bit of time to go through my books and other publications. As with all articles on popular culture topics (or not-as-well-known subculture topics ;-)) there is always the risk of nn bands adding themselves or being added by fans, but as long as we keep an eye on that I think this can be turned into a perfectly respectable article. It's already in much better shape than articles that merit being considered for AfD. (edit-conflict edited to add: Perhaps one of the problems English-speakers are having is that some of the sources are in Gaelic and they can't see how they source the article. While this is en-wiki, and we should use English sources as much as possible, when the topic itself deals with bands performing in the Gaelic language, it's only expected that some of those sources will be in Gaelic. If we are to allow topics on WP that deal with other languages than English - which we do - these sources are relevant.) - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Passes WP:N per The Scotsman article. Epbr123 (talk) 20:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as perfectly well sourced (see the external links) and notable genre. Does not even include Ashley MacIsaac. Just needs cleanup. Bearian (talk) 16:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment the article in The Scotsman does not describe a genre. Calling a band gaelic punk does not make it a genre, let alone a notable one. --Neon white (talk) 19:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Comment, whether or not it is a genre is irrelevant... it is more a kind of a movement. --MacRusgail (talk) 19:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Movement or genre, it still requires reliable second party sources that says it exists. --Neon white (talk) 04:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Erm, like the BBC or The Scotsman? --MacRusgail (talk) 15:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Some time ago I put up Who Gon Stop Us as a speedy delete, which was turned down on the grounds that it had "potential notability". By comparison this is Brittanica quality. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 21:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no such thing as "potential notability" as WP:N says articles should not be written based on speculation that the topic may receive additional coverage in the future. --Neon white (talk) 04:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep With a number of different bands using Gaelic as medium whilst playing music recognised as punk, then this clearly is a genre. Not only that, but it is a genre recognised outwith Scotland that has been discussed in national newspapers, fanzines, websites and radio - both BBC Scotland (Vic Galloway's program) and BBC Radio nan Gaidhleal have played music identified as Gaelic punk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seonaidh (talk • contribs) 10:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep I'm not entirely sure whether I'm entitled to take part in this debate, as I'm a registered user of the Gaelic Wikepedia but not the English Wikepedia. I'm also 47, which means I'm old enough to remember the arrival of "punk" first time round. The Gaelic Songs of Oi Polloi have their place in Gaelic music, because what has from time immemorial defined Gaelic music is the use of the language. In traditional Gaelic music rythms are defined by the liguistic rythms of the lyricsl- this is as true in piobaireachd as it is in song per-se or in Peurt a Beul, and is reflected in much of Run-Rig's Gaelic work. This depedency does not (to my ear anyway) carry through into the punk genre, which nonetheless reflects a new form of creativity within Gaelic culture. It certainly isn't everyone's glass of malt but from the Gaelic speaker's perspective it is definitely a genre of Gaelic Music. It is also quite clearly punk- by volume, rythym and well...lyrics. PEÓD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.18.69 (talk) 22:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Notable, referenced with reliable sources, add in all the valid keep arguments above - end of story. --Cactus.man ✍ 00:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.