Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Schooner Jenny (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Non admin closure. --Jorvik 15:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schooner Jenny

Schooner Jenny (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This article was nominated before, but I am nominating again because I have been unable to find any reliable sources. In the previous debate, it was claimed that a Rosemary Dobson poem The Ship of Ice, was the source for this article. Another editor found a source through a Google search, but that, too, used the Dobson poem as a source. Poetry fails WP:RS, causing this article to fail WP:V. I really tried to find a verifiable source, even checking LexisNexis databases for a reference. Poets romanticize history, and just because Dobson wrote a poem about a ship, doesn't mean the ship existed.K-lit 03:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, non-notable poem/ship. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 03:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, TenPoundHammer, and my comments on the article's talk page. Anynobody 03:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to switch my vote, but my problem with the books cited is that they don't cite any sources relating to the Jenny. Given the similarity between the poem and the accounts in the books, I'm thinking that they had the same source as the original; a poem. Then there are things like anyone living 71 days without food in antarctic conditions, most people at best can't live longer than 40 days in ideal conditions without food and the fact that one would freeze to death before they had a chance to starve makes me skeptical. (By ideal conditions I mean people on a hunger strike who don't have to deal with issues like keeping a fire going, operating the ship, or melting chunks of ice to drink. Anynobody 09:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm skeptical of the colorful details as well, but the book Antarctica: An Encyclopedia doesn't seem to "cite" the poem, and the review of Antarctic fiction (my first link below) says that "Headland, R. K. Chronological List of Antarctic Expeditions and Related Historical Events. Cambridge, New York, Port Chester, Melbourne, Sydney: Cambridge University Press, 1989." cites a 19th century source, Globus (whatever that was), for an 1840 date. I would assume such an academic work would not rely on just a poem. The poem itself gives a specific date of 9/22/1860, so that seems to be the first major embellishment. In any case, I've always felt this is the kind of thing that would have more print sources than online. --Dhartung | Talk 20:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, as for survival, remember that Shackleton's men survived for nearly two years without provisioning. They were well-prepared, of course, but there are options such as fish, seals, or penguins that could conceivably have extended stores, as well as breaking into whatever they may have been carrying as cargo. The greatest oddity that I find is that the ship wasn't broken up, as happened to the Endurance, but that again may be embellishment. The original could have been found on top of the ice or something. --Dhartung | Talk 20:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. The story seems to have a 19th century origin per here and is found in Antarctica: An Encyclopedia (1990) and Seafaring Lore and Legends (2003). I also found a notation in the Scott Polar Record (visible in search results pages only). It's not a lot for WP:N but I think being the subject of a poem makes it notable. --Dhartung | Talk 08:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Ooh! Ooh! One more: Antarctic feature named for ship. --Dhartung | Talk 08:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Dhartung's first source still cites the poem as the source. The other two entries may confirm that source, but this is still an obscure poem that makes this article non-notable, IMO. K-lit 15:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• A poem known to the Antarctic constituency, it appears, and one which did win an award, and whose author is at the highest rank of achievement with national recognition. I'm unclear which of "my" sources "cites the poem as the source". Most of them mention the poem. --Dhartung | Talk 23:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Dhartung. Two appropriate sources for this is enough. JulesH 08:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The poem only came after the publication of the story in Ripley, See Talk:Schooner Jenny. Admittedly Ripley is not the most reliable of secondary sources, but the story must have appeared somewhere before that Mighty Antar 19:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep article has citations and it would have been notable at the time but Google News didn't exist then. ~ Infrangible 02:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I have been digging through old books for several months tracing the origin of this story, but I haven't had time to get my findings organized yet. While the story may not be true, it is definitely notable because it has captivated so many writers over the past ~160 years. Unfortunately Ripley got a hold of the story and made it absurd. Its origin appears to be the same as the Octavius. I plan to do a major rewrite of both articles in a few weeks. Griffinity 05:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Interesting. Do you suppose that Ripley or Dobson combined bits of two real events or what exactly? I had been considering reorganizing the material to indicate that at least some of the dramatic details might be fictional despite other apparent non-fictional references. --Dhartung | Talk 20:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep seeing that the concerns raised by the nominator have been assuaged. Thank you Klit for bringing this to our attention. Burntsauce 18:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.