Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Saurashtra Janata Express

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. Several editors have expressed concern that there may be a systematic bias problem here. Others have put forward that there is no significant coverage found in indepent reliable sources. Others again express the opinion that we may presume this subject notable on its merits, without having found those sources yet. In the end there is no consensus for deletion. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saurashtra Janata Express

Saurashtra Janata Express (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Wikipedia is not a travel guide and there's no evidence this is a notable train. TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 04:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

And why is this? It it because it's Indian? ----DanTD (talk) 04:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Thats exactly it. Well that and because its a completely unsourced article about a non-notable subject, totally inappropriate for an encyclopedia. --Lemmey talk 04:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Comment Why is it listed on the India related board? Yes, in case there's something in the local press and/or one of the languages of India that established notability. Why is it up for deletion? Precisely as I said in my nom and as Lemney echoed above. TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 04:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete per above --Lemmey talk 04:33, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete Searching news.google.com turns up nothing, not notabile, fails criteria.  Atyndall93 | talk  05:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. All named trains are notable. References are probably out there in some form or another, even if a Google search doesn't turn up much. There are a lot of books and magazines about trains that may not be indexed by Google, including material intended for different specific audiences such as railfans, vacationers, business travellers, travel agents and railway managers. After all, rail transportation represents a significant part of the economy of India. --Eastmain (talk) 05:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • All trains in India are named, like US counterparts and unlike Euro. Names can be obscure and inconsistently spelled in English. Potatoswatter (talk) 13:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment No, not all named trains are notable. This appears to be a run of the mill train. The train line I commute on to work every day is named, there's no evidence it's notable either and that's in a large US city. If it's for travelers, then it's travel guide information. Railway service in general is important and some particular train lines might be for historical reasons -- there's no evidence this is anything but a runn of the mill train TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 17:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Non-notable. We do not bet on future notability, and I disagree that all named trains are notable. This is apparently a good example of a non-notable one. There is nothing to indicate it is notable in any way. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:53, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge to Western Railway (India). As for comparison to US train articles, see Carolinian and Piedmont, and then browse to that article from Amtrak by clicking through Northeast Corridor. When we have that volume of information on Indian trains, there can be an article on this. For now, progress is very respectible but keeping structure cohesive will help. Potatoswatter (talk) 13:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep - might I offer a British comparison Pines Express? This appears to be a railway service, rather than a particular train. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment The difference is the Pines Express actually appears to have a notable, albeit currently unsourced, history that has been covered years after it last ran. This appears to be nothing more than a travel listing, no evidence of notability. TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 17:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • keep I think all named trains should in fact be considered as notable; but if not, it should at least apply to major inter-city expresses such as this. That a WPedian happens to ride one regularly does not make it any the less notable. We'd expect that notable trains are ridden by many people. DGG (talk) 18:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment but what is notable? The article as it stands, which does not appear to be improvable due to a lack of information, is simply what you'd find in a travel guide. There's no evidence this is anything other than a train that runs between two cities with some stops. It had a death and a robbery -- probably not uncommon for Indian trains either. This train exists, but I don't think a name makes it notable. Just my .02 TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 19:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - A very important route in India between two major metropolitan areas (that's one of the reasons it's named). We're getting into systemic bias if we start deleting articles on a certain topic in one country and yet never had any problem with equivalent US article topics.--Oakshade (talk) 03:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Again, all trains in India have names, like in the US. This information could be just as nicely presented in Western Railway (India), which is already better integrated with other articles on Indian transportation. Potatoswatter (talk) 03:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Disagree, I'd support deletion of a non-notable train in the US as well. Trains connecting cities are not inherently notable. They exist, that doesn't mean they're notable. No one has proved any evidence this train is notable. Wikipedia is not a directory of trains throughout the world TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 04:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Trains connecting major metropolitan areas aren't notable? Thanks for your opinion. And deleting named trains articles in one country when named trains in the US are considered notable is in fact a classic example of systemic bias. Your single (and sudden) "I would support deleting US named train articles" opinion is irrelevant. --Oakshade (talk) 05:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
  • May I remind you of Wikipedia's notability: If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable. Has nothing to do with bias, there is no evidence this train is notable and if a US/UK/Mars train had the same lack of evidence of notability, it should be deleted. TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 14:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
  • comment - I think what the nominator is looking for here (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is the historical significance of this service. A historically significant railway service will have references that list more than just departure/arrival information. The search results linked in the nominator's original statement lists several pages that mention this service, but I'm not seeing links that list much more than timetable information. There are two news links dating back to 1999 that were added to the article as references, and that kind of information is closer to the historical significance that we need to assert on this service, but their connection to the subject appears to be on the order of "this event had a connection to the train service" rather than "this train is notable because...". It's entirely possible that this service is historically significant, so our task is to find reliable sources that say so and add that information to the article in order to keep it. I'm holding my opinion on the merits of this nomination until I can do a more thorough search through resources that might not yet be indexed on the net. Slambo (Speak) 18:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I understand what you're getting at, Slambo. But I still don't like it. The whole thing seems like we're just ready to ditch the article just because it's not from America. I may not know of every named passenger train in India, the UK, or France, but that alone shouldn't give us the right to trash it. Maybe you remember when somebody tagged all South Korean subway stations for deletion, and I mentioned that doing so would give the appearence of bias towards American railroad articles, and against railroad articles from specific countries. ----DanTD (talk) 03:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.