Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sarah Knauss

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Nomination was withdrawn, resulting with a keep. --Michael Greiner 01:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sarah Knauss

Sarah Knauss (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Another article on very old person, most of which is unsupported by the refs supplied. A Google search threw up lots of hits on webforums etc, but the closest I found to a reliable source was this largely speculative article in the Journal of Financial Planning, which mostly refers to the times she lived in and says very little about Knauss. Unless some substantive coverage in reliable sources can be found, I suggest either deletion or merger to List of American supercentenarians. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

    • Nomination withdrawn to allow for article improvement now that refs have been found which, if verified, might establish notability. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Reply Hmm, thank you! Neal (talk) 06:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC).
  • Keep. One of the women to have the oldest person in the world title, why doesn't this make her notable?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Strong keep Seems like the 2nd oldest verified woman in the history of the human race is going for deletion over need of more citations and references. Neal (talk) 20:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC).

    • Reply She is included in the relevant lists, and her position there is not in dispute. However per WP:BIO, references to substantial coverage are required for a stanbdalone article. -BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I feel like this should be kept, but I'm not entirely certain that the coverage merits it yet. Will wait to see if anyone can produce some good reliable sources before I have an opinion. So I guess, maybe this is a "provisional keep." Cheers, CP 20:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Now changing to a keep, per strength of references. Cheers, CP 04:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - utmost respect for really old people, who must have been very careful, but this does not qualify someone as notable. AvruchTalk 21:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Switching to keep per enormous number of references just provided... AvruchTalk 00:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and reference better I don't want to seem rude but, but these look like BrownHairedGirl Bad Faith Nominations. A simple Google search found many references, why didn't the nominator find them? It appears that she was angry and is retaliating by nominating all the articles for deletion without preforming the minimal due diligence. Do you honestly not how to do a Google search, or are you presenting selective research to bolster your point? [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply Richard Arthur, if you don't want to appear rude, then stop alleging bad faith and using boldface type to make unfounded accusations of selective research. This one of several similar allegations which you have in the last few hours, and it's getting rather tedious. As I have stated umpteen times, my preference with most of the many articles on non-notable oldies would have been to merge them, and it was only when the mergers were reverted while notability was still not established that I brought them to AfD to allow for a consensus decision on their fate in those cases where I did not find references (I did find refs for ecample for Virginia Muise, and added them to the article). As you will see if you look at the many other nominations, most of them have not so far been improve to meet notability thresholds.
      I provided in my nomination a direct link to the google search which I used in good faith, and on which I checked the first few pages. Well done finding more references, which is precisely what I asked to be done, but there is no need to be rude just because you found refs which I missed.
      However, I note that the references are less impressive than the list of 7 might suggest: Morning Call and BBC story are alleged copies of news articles (possibly copyvios), the CNN story is an alleged copy of a news article in a mailing list archive, the Guardian ref is a 46-word snippet, the Washington Post story is almost identical to the BBC, suggesting that both are based on the same AP stories (which also the source of the CNN story, though the Philadelphia Inquirer article does appear substantive (1681 words according to Highbeam). If someone can actually dig out the full text of the articles, I think that notability may be established by PA+Inquirer, but I note that your list so far doesn't include the full text of any substantive article on its original website. At this point, I will withdraw the nomination to give interested editors a chance to improve the article, but I hope that any further discussion can take place without further personal attacks. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't think the Washington Post plagiarizes from AP releases, if it did, it would be bigger news than this story. All the references are similar, as I hope they should be, because they are all interviewing the same person, her granddaughter. I am never rude, no more than a teacher giving someone a bad grade, but I won't praise, or keep silent when someone nominates without performing, minimally, a thorough Google search. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Hold that front page: here is nothing new in a newspaper using a wire service; not all of them name the wire at the top of the article (it's sometimes at the bottom), and it may not survive in reproductions. Your reply confirms that you still haven't read my nomination, and the fact that you think you are like a teacher scolding an errant child makes my point about your lack of manners better than I could. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I am not sure how you transmogrified "teacher giving someone a bad grade" into "teacher scolding an errant child", but they are not synonyms.
  • Plagiarism What evidence do you have the the Washington Post used the Associated Press article without attribution? It is a strong statement to make. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment Hey, thank you, Richard Norton! Neal (talk) 00:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC).

  • Keep and reference better - improve the references. --Maniwar (talk) 20:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Second oldest person proven EVER is certainly notable, as well as those refs that back it up. Probably BHG bad-faith again. ''[[User:Kitia|Kitia]]'' (talk) 23:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep jaknouse (talk) 23:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep now that nom is withdrawn. --Storkk (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

  1. ^ "Mrs. Sarah Knauss, the World's Oldest Person, Turns 119.", The Morning Call, September 25, 1999. Retrieved on 2007-12-09. "Mrs. Sarah Knauss began her final year as a teenager Friday, unless she lives for another 100 years. The world's oldest person turned 119, marking her birthday at Phoebe Home in Allentown, Pennsylvania with a trip to the hair stylist, a taste of crab patty, and more than a few bites of butterscotch sundae and chocolate turtles. Asked if she made a wish when she blew out the candles on an iced chocolate, vanilla and strawberry cake, Knauss delayed for a moment before replying, "No." After 119 birthdays, how many wishes can possibly be left? And how many other people can say they were born in '80 -- as in, 1880?" 
  2. ^ "World's oldest person misses millennium.", CNN. Retrieved on 2007-12-09. "The oldest person in the world has died two days short of seeing her third century. Sarah Knauss, whose claim is recognised by the Guinness Book of Records, died on Thursday at the age of 119, just missing the new millennium. Mrs Knauss died of natural causes in a nursing home in Allentown, Pennsylvania. "She died quietly in her room. She was not ill," the head of the home said. "They had stopped in to see her just less than an hour before, and when the nurse went back, she had passed away."" 
  3. ^ "Sarah Knauss, world's oldest person, 119.", Associated Press, December 30, 1999. Retrieved on 2007-12-09. "Sarah Knauss, listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the world's oldest person, died Thursday at the age of 119, according to a spokeswoman at the Allentown nursing home where she lived." 
  4. ^ "World's Oldest Person, Sarah Knauss, Dies at 119.", Washington Post, December 31, 1999. Retrieved on 2007-12-09. "Sarah Knauss, listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the world's oldest person, died Dec. 30 at the age of 119, apparently of natural causes, according to an official at the Allentown, Pennsylvania, nursing home where she lived. "She died quietly in her room. She was not ill," said Marcella Moyer Schick, executive director of the Pheobe-Devitt Homes Foundation. "They had stopped in to see her just less than an hour before, and when the nurse went back, she had passed away."" 
  5. ^ "A look through the eyes of Sarah Knauss.", Philadelphia Enquirer. Retrieved on 2007-12-09. "Sarah Knauss is 118 years old. She is the world's oldest person and lives in an Allentown nursing home. Her daughter, Kitty Sullivan, turned 95 Tuesday. She just gave away her Oldsmobile and moved into a retirement community across the street from her mother. The daughter says she's having a hard time adjusting to living around so many old people. "I feel like an inmate," she said. Sarah's grandson, Robert Butz, 73, lives" 
  6. ^ "Nothing Fazes Oldest Woman.", Associated Press, April 19, 1998. Retrieved on 2007-12-09. "Sarah Knauss had a simple response when she learned she was the oldest woman alive. "So what?" the 117-year-old said Friday in Allentown, Pa. Marie-Louise Febronie Meilleur, a Canadian who died Thursday, was Knauss' senior by 26 days. The Guinness Book of Records has officially passed the mantle to Knauss. Born Sept. 24, 1880, in a small mining town, she married Abraham Lincoln Knauss in 1901. Abe, a well-known Lehigh County Republican leader and ..." 
  7. ^ "World's oldest person dies.", The Guardian. Retrieved on 2007-12-09. "The world's oldest person, Sarah Knauss, died yesterday at the age of 119 at a retirement home in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Mrs Knauss, who was born in September 1880, died of natural causes just 33 hours before the beginning of the new century. Michael Ellison, New York." 
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.