Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sally's Apizza

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was No consensus (5 keep, 4 delete, 2 merge), so keep. --Allen3 ^talk 12:05, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sally's Apizza

Advertising-- BMIComp (talk) 16:24, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep Please see my notes about Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Frank Pepe Pizzeria Napoletana. The same arguments apply here: the article is similar to many other restaurant articles in Wikipedia, it's about an important part of local culture, and the establishment is historically significant. Dr.frog 16:34, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep First, I want to point out that this VfD is broken. As of when I went to edit this, the VfD edit link was broken. That said, this is exactly the kind of article that I think strains the analogy of Wikipedia to a dead-tree encyclopedia. There's no particularly good reason to list every pizza store, but older restaurants that are significant in their communities are a part of the local culture, and I hope that over time Wikipedia becomes a place where culture is recorded, not just in the sweeping terms of traditional encyclopedias, but also at a regional level where information is all too often lost. -Harmil 17:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete no evidence or claim of notablility (unlike Frank Pepe which at least claims the notability of being the first Pizza restaurant in the US, even if it doesn't offer evidence). RJFJR 17:51, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

If you read the newspaper article cited as a reference on the page, you'll get a flavor of how famous Sally's is. It's a major tourist attraction in New Haven, was featured in a Doonesbury cartoon, etc. Dr.frog 18:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I live in New Haven county and when I asked a group of people for good places for pizza, Sally's and Pepe's were the recommended places (unfortunately, I prefer thick crusts so I'm not into New Haven style pizza). The part about Doonesbury was added after I made the vote. While it is national recognition I'm not sure one strip in the series is enough to make it notable. I'm just not convinced it has more than local significance. RJFJR 18:20, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I did some more research and found that there have been continuing references to Sally's in the Doonesbury comic strip, not just the one they have displayed on the wall in the restaurant. (I'm not a Doonesbury fan so I didn't know this off the top of my head). I just tweaked the text of the article to reflect that it has been mentioned more than once. Dr.frog 22:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• I don't think one could possibly hope to be able to distinguish, from thousands of miles away over the Internet, "older restaurants that are significant in their communities" from other sorts of restaurants. Local businesses that have no larger claim to fame are, well, just that. Doonesbury cite and claim to "tourist attraction" status are far more to the point, but insufficient at this point. More cites along these lines could convince me; for now, Delete. Dcarrano 18:41, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me to be rather arrogant to advocate deleting an article just because you don't have the knowledge to distinguish whether its subject is significant or interesting to others. E.g. I'm both clueless about and uninterested in molecular biology, but you don't see me suggesting that we delete all those articles from Wikipedia. Dr.frog 20:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

That's obviously a ludicrous strawman argument, so I won't feel bad about letting off a little steam on you now. Restaurant review cites don't help... I'm aware it's a restaurant! It's easy to find information about "tourist attractions" on the web, isn't it? New Haven is a pretty big city, no? With a lot of educated, computer-savvy people, a lot of stuff on the Internet about it, right? Seems like if something was one of New Haven's leading tourist attractions, one would be able to prove that, no? Gimme THAT... and given that you're right about the city being associated with pizza, it's very possible you can... but... prove it. Dcarrano 00:00, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Expecting everyone who contributes an article to Wikipedia to justify its universal relevance and usefulness is a great way to discourage people from contributing, you know.  :-P In any case, here is a link I found randomly on the Yale University admissions site, bragging about the attractions of the city: [1] Quote: "[Wooster Square] is best known for its two world-famous pizzerias: Sally's (est. 1938) and Pepe's (est. 1925). These pizzerias, which are widely considered to be the nation's best, attract pizza lovers from all over the world." BTW, the guy who wrote the fan pages on the pizzatherapy.com is from *Hawaii*. Dr.frog 00:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I have added some additional references to the article now. Dr.frog 22:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• I live in Texas and have never been to Connecticut in my life. I have heard of both Pepe's and Sally's. As far as I'm concerned, that makes both of them notable enough to keep. Microtonal 22:11, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete or redirect to New Haven. Most cities have a pizza place or two that have local fame. CDC (talk) 23:10, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, but Sally's has very much more than just "local" fame! It is an extremely well-known restaurant, not just a local hangout. Dr.frog 23:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

That's the claim, but I'm not convinced - hence my vote. CDC (talk) 01:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The original reason why the page was proposed for deletion was "advertising", and per the policy in WP:NOT, this means that either the article is biased or that the business in question is so small that the topic is not third-party verifiable. I haven't seen anybody complaining about the former, and the latter can be addressed if you care to do a Google search. Or just read the newspaper article linked to in the references section. If you have some other reason for wanting the article to be deleted, can you cite the appropriate section of WP policy? Dr.frog 02:09, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep as per Harmil. This is what Wikipedia is about. royblumy 00:25 13 July, 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with Apizza and redirect there. This and Pepe's are the best-known exponents of the little-known Apizza phenomenon. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 07:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
• Merge as above, or send to Wikitravel. Radiant_>|< 09:46, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
• strong keep. This is a very famous part of New Haven culture. This is not advertising, and it is notable, so why would we want to get rid of this? Brighterorange 16:37, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.